I understand your point that Pohren's word is all we have on this matter, however I think you must agree he wrote his accounts of Moron to his best interest. I refuse to believe that the alleged pot use was the basis for breaking up a friendship, howbeit casual. It may have been a factor, but I think jealousy over Diego's attention was the main factor. Let's face it, Diego was the main attraction. The evidence for this statement is after his death the foreign invasion came to almost a halt. Also the foreigners were still coming to Moron after the closing of the Finca for one reason only ... to study with Diego.

Many that spent years in Moron will tell you there were two distinct camps ... the Finca and the in town with Diego bunch. Pohren's writings now considered the history of Moron do not include what was going on in town because he knew very little about it. All he knew was what he saw and experienced when he came to town and the in town group usually didn't mix with the Finca bunch even when they came to town. While "Lives and Legends" may mention some of the foreign guitar greats, I find it strange that the "Art of Flamenco" did not ... except to expose "George and Mary" who were no doubt Chris and Maria.

Since Chris was regarded as one of Diegos favorites, this incident no doubt further strained the Finca and the Diego and disciples relationship.

Pohren never said all those living in town were druggies, but he does make repeated inferences that lead many to make that rash judgment. He indicates he was strict about drug use because of fear of the authorities, not a moral issue, but indicates that these offenders went on to live in town. Apparently Pohren thought the authorities were watching him closer than they were the foreigners in town. This may have been true but I doubt it and I think he uses the drug issue as an excuse for the Finca's failure to become the ultimate flamenco puro experience.

In my opinion the Finca failed because it did not fit the gypsy way of life. It was a structured business owned by a non gypsy and the gypsy flamenco performers only went there because they were paid. However if Pohren had never written his books and operated the Finca, we would not be having this discussion. I would have probably never found flamenco since my first exposure to flamenco was by a student of Diego.

While the story about Chris in "Lives and Legends" indicates Chris came looking for Pohren, I think this was Pohren's ego, because every other account by those that knew Chris say he went looking for Diego which makes sense. If Chris went looking for Pohren, why didn't he go directly to him? I think the reason Pohren didn't mention Chris by name was because he knew Chris came for Diego and IMO met Pohren in Moron. IMO I think Chris had never heard of Diego until he was in Spain for a while and studying with Perico, etc. Then he heard about Diego and went to find him.

Accounts of other Moron foreign guitar greats give credit to Pohren for finding Diego. None of the accounts written by friends or relatives of Carnes mentions Pohren. Maybe this is because of the falling out between Carnes and Pohren or maybe because Carnes found Diego through connections in Spain and not Pohren.

Sam, I just don't have your interest in speculating about what might have been going on in various minds in Moron in the 1960s; I try instead to stick to what record we have and to draw the fewest, simplest, most rational inferences from what we actually know. Here are a couple of issues we can address:

(1) In Lives and Legends of Flamenco (LALOF), Pohren says only that the young Californian "looked me up", a perfectly reasonable thing to do in that they both were in Madrid. If the young American was Chris Carnes, he was studying with Perico, who was playing at La Zambra, who knew Pohren, etc., and there is no reason to suppose that Chris hadn't also already heard of Pohren. Perfectly natural to "look up" Donn Pohren.

(2) The fact that there were two camps in Moron, finca and non-finca, has no bearing on what we're discusssing, as far as I can tell.

(3) The only assertion, so far, that "George" and "Mary" were Chris and Moreen Carnes comes from Jacinto. Jacinto will be the first to tell you that he arrived in Moron in 1968, about two years after the events of April/May 1966; hence he could not have witnessed what went on. If Jacinto can provide some additional data, that would be great!

(4) Similarly, Jacinto also asserts that the tales of "George" and "Mary" are not accurate. We've already established that there are three possibilities: (1) G & M were some other couple; (2) G & M were Chris and Moreen, and Pohren told lies about them, and; (3) G & M were Chris and Moreen, and Pohren told the truth. A thesis that covers the known facts and agrees with probable behavior would state that, whomever G & M were, the "bad" behavior was real, but was not inconsistent with some young people in their mid-twenties in the mid-1960s in Moron. It's entirely possible and believable that Pohren thought G & M would not smoke pot but they did anyway, and that M behaved like a jerk, and that they mutually decided to break off the stay at the finca, and that Pohren would also feel betrayed and angry.

(4) "George" and " Mary" are discussed in A Way of Life, (AWOL) by Pohren, not in The Art of Flamenco, (TAOF). This is only a small point. But in the final edition of TAOF, Pohren, almost 40 years later, has clearly gotten over his anger with "Mary", and goes on to name Maria la Marrurra (if this is indeed the same "Mary", Moreen Silver (Carnes)) as one of the tiny handful of non-Spaniards to master cante.

(5) Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. While no published source (other than Pohren) states that Carnes found out about Diego from Pohren, no source says he didn't or couldn't have learned of Diego from Pohren either. It's not ruled in; it's not ruled out. Everybody else seems to have heard of Diego in some way via Pohren; why not Carnes?

Carlos (STILL questing!)

Carlos, You are correct on the story being in "Way of Life." You make a compelling case and the story of them meeting in Madrid may be correct. My purpose in reasonable speculation on why Pohren does not use real names does have a bearing on this discussion. Example: Why didn't Pohren just say Chris Carnes from LA met him in Madrid? Why all the mystery created by writing a student of Marios? Understanding a possible reason helps fit this puzzle together. A strained relationship at the time of the writing would explain it. I would suggest contacting Carnes first wife now in Madrid and I am sure she could answer all the questions and clear this matter up if she chooses.
Company Silver Press
Contact Person Ms. Moreen Silver
Telephone 34-91-441-9915
Fax 34-91-441-3191
Address Breton de los Herreros 46, madrid, madrid, Spain 28003

Also Pohrens wife Luisa Marvilla could clear up the George and Mary story. Last I heard she was alive and in Madrid. I have no idea how to contact her other than consulting the phone book.

Possibily David Serva could help clear this up also. I have no current contact info on David Serva but you might get it through the SF Bay area Flamenco Partnership. Email > info@laninaflamenco.com

My purpose in mentioning the two flamenco groups in Moron de la Frontera is most readers of Donn Pohren's books get the idea he told the whole story of Moron flamenco in the years from the late 50's to the early 70's. Not so, not even half of the story, but since just a few have told their stories briefly, Pohrens writing will remain the bible of Moron. Don't get me wrong ... I think his writing are valuable and were the catalyst for the foreign invasion on Moron, but not the whole story. His changing names to protect the guilty or perhaps innocent is tragic IMO because it leaves for speculation in history. IMO leaving a story untold is better than altering one leaving for speculation.

Sam, thanks for your suggestions. About a month ago I attempted to contact Moreen Silver via email, but no reply. I think the reason that Pohren did not mention Carnes by name in LALOF as the student of Mario Escudero was to spare the "young Californian" any embarrassment, real or imaginery, at having been an admirer of Mario Escudero. I think Pohren was happy at having placed Carnes on the correct path, but, in a perhaps clumsy way, he also thus tried to shield Carnes from later criticism, also real or imaginery. The section in LALOF where Carnes is mentioned as the "young Californian" is Pohren's analysis of Escudero's toque; Carnes comes up there only in passing.

I agree that it would make life so much easier for future students of this fascinating era in flamenco history if people like Pohren had just always told the complete and unvarnished truth (as they saw it), naming names, etc. I know that someday the Pohren/Diego/Moron phenomenon is going to be a great book by somebody (not me!), and maybe our little efforts here will be of some help. But I have no intention of further contacting anybody about this period. However, whatever comes up in the public record I'll follow with real interest.

Carlos

I might have mentioned this before, but a book about Diego del Gastor has been written and published. "Diego del Gastor El Eco De Unos Torques" by Angel Sody de Rivas and is full of info of all kinds. My only problem with it is I can't read Spanish that well. I bought it by mistake out of Spain. I thought it was a collection of tab. The price was outrageous with the Euro conversion. Although it has some of the same info as Pohren it is supposed to have new information never published before. I am hoping when one of my wifes friends a bilingual teacher will have time one day to help me translate it. You might find it interesting as it has the Amaya and Flores family tree, birth and baptism documents, etc. I am most interested in the info on Pepe Naranjo it contains. Info on Pepe is hard to find. I have a few of his falsetas in tab and they are my favorites. They are included in my upcoming Masterpiece (actually a piece using falsetas from the masters) flamenco-f6/disassociated-phrasing-connecting-para-el-soleares-t170.html

Yeah, I know promises, promises, but I am still working on a better recording system and also working with my new palmas cd trying to get the compas perfected. Some days my hands are so bad I have little strength in them and my ligatos are weak, but I am determine to get this recorded even if it isn't the best.

Sounds like a good book indeed. My Spanish is feeble also, but I'm taking lessons and, maybe someday........

Another book that also should do very well in an English translation might be Estela Zatania's Flamencos de Ganania. If the publishers are looking for more sales and a wider audience, they really should make some effort to expand that audience by offering more books in translation.

Carlos

This is all interesting about all this Chris Carnes stuff. I have a bit of a different take on all this. My take is from Ansonini Del Puerto, who was a very colorful figure in Moron. With all due respect to you all. Diego Del Gastor was a nice man, but by the standard of the average professional Flamenco guitarists in Spain, he was not considered any type of virtuoso. THe Finca Esparto, if I recall the name, was something Pohren wanted to do for money to get foreign students to pay for classes there. I remember that Chris was always sending guitars to several of my friends that were in the music business back then, so that they could re-sell them here in the States. I have never heard Chris play the guitar, so if anyone can send me a link I would really appreciate it. I do remember seeing his wife sing with Melchor de Marchena once and that was amazing for that time.

I think that Pohren died a bit embittered at the situation of FLamenco at the time of his death. He resented the way Flamenco had changed and he distanced himself away from it. After the Moron time in has life and after his marraige to his then breathtaking wife, he needed money and he started wine tours throughout Spain for tourists. I don't think that there was any deep friendships between Americans that wanted to study FLamenco in Spain during that time frame. I was also there then so I have a certain view of things. There is an old saying that goes like this: "They got along worse that a bus load of bad opera singers" I think that sums up the overall feeling on foreigners that were trying to learn FLamenco at that time, as it still does. If a few good foreign guitarists came out of Moron then that was a great accomplishment. I don't think that there was any type of great enduring friendship struck. Oh yes, I just remembered another thing..Pohren's wife was also getting tired of the constant drinking and late night to morning juergas that is all part of FLamenco. She put and stop to much of this and didn't care for some of the foreigners there. I don't know if this helps or just brings everything down. I still have a home in Andalusia as well as California and go every year. Federico

Thanks for your post Federico. You make some interesting points. I know several that feel Chris Carnes took advantage of his close relationship to Diego and commercialized it. He was an accomplished guitarist before he went to Moron, but it was his association with Diego that gave him a name that provided him a living from flamenco. He even hosted a flamenco radio show in California. I never heard him play, but do know several that have and all agree he was an excellent flamenco guitarist.

Diego never claimed to be a virtuoso guitarist. He had no ambitions of being a recording star or traveling doing concerts. He was content with his life in Moron and the frequent juergas that were improvisational. I don't think of Diego as a virtuoso guitarist, but as a gypsy guitarist with interesting accompaniment and unusual solos ... a one of a kind. He had his own style that defies duplication by the best parrots. He didn't have compositions that were refined and rehearsed for concert presentation. He played for the moment. Nino Ricardo best summed it up. "You might say that Diego is flamenco. The rest of us are something else, professionals only too often lost in the technicalities of the instrument."

Foreigners were welcomed in Moron in those years (50's-70's) unlike other parts of Andulucia and the people there were willing to share their music and way of life. I think this was the key ingredient to the success of foreigners learning flamenco in Moron.

I think of Melchor de Marchena and Diego del Gastor as being unique and expressing flamenco on the guitar. They cannot be compared to concert virtuoso guitarist, they are in a league of their own.

There are those that play flamenco rhythms on the guitar and then those that use the guitar as a medium to express emotions and paint an auditory picture. Learning flamenco if one didn't grow up with it is difficult.

Maybe a recording either audio or video of Chris Carnes playing will surface. I too would be interested in hearing it.

The "best" flamenco guitarists have been those who have most completely embraced the primary role of the guitarist in flamenco--to sympathetically accompany and support the singer, to be the singer's alter ego and helpmate, without drawing attention away from the primacy of the cante. By this highest standard, Diego was at the top of his profession. I'm no guitarist; flamenco solo guitar virtuosity means nothing to me, because without el cante, there is little left to flamenco--it is a hollow shell. Often the most satisfying flamenco performances are those where one remembers the singer and the song, and that the guitarist accompanied tastefully and gracefully. I'd rather listen to a singer accompanied by a serious, dedicated workman like Paco Aguilera or Triguito or Andres Heredia than any number of "virtuoso" guitarists. Diego accompanying La Fernanda or La Bernarda or Perrate--that's flamenco guitar (as it should be). The relentless pursuit of virtuosity has given flamenco guitar a bad name, and is crippling flamenco.

Carlos