I think the following webpages will verify that Chris Carnes finding Diego del Gastor was by chance. He had no connection to Donn Pohren or was influenced by him. Chris Carnes was never a "hippie," to my knowledge, and was proclaimed by Diego to be an American gypsy.

http://www.finefretted.com/html/chris_c ... 2000_.html

http://www.institutefortraditionalstudi ... orial.html

http://www.stevekahn.com/flamenco/chris_carnes.html

http://www.flamencoromantico.com/Chris.htm

http://www.gypsyflamenco.com/cristobal.html

I am interested in unravelling the history of the Diego/Moron/Pohren phenomenon, and come to the issue strictly as an outsider. I have only the testimony of those who have posted on this subject to go by. I spent a good part of an afternoon reviewing 5 postings about that era, and have come up with some contradictions (minor?) about the initial role of Donn Pohren in bringing Diego del Gastor to the attention of Americans and other non-Spaniards.

Brook Zern states that the spread of Diego's reputation was in large measure but not completely the result of the efforts of Pohren. Zern says that before Pohren's The Art of Flamenco was widely known, he (Zern) and others (not named) heard about Diego from Chris Carnes and David Serva. Carnes, we see, went to Spain in 1963, and to Moron in 1964, to seek out Diego. I've yet to find a source that tells us how or from whom Carnes had heard about Diego. David Serva, according to Carl Nagin's account of Serva's career, had heard of Diego from Donn Pohren when Serva arrived in Spain and visited Pohren on his second trip there in 1962. He was given some audiotapes of Diego by Pohren to listen to, and was told about the scene in Moron by Pohren. Serva immediately absorbed as much as he could of Diego's style of playing, and, when Pohren had recovered from an illness, the two went to Moron, where Pohren introduced Serva to Diego at Casa Pepe (1962). Diego asked Serva to play something for him, and thus Serva became Diego's first (and finest?) pupil.

It seems that Donn Pohren's role at the beginning may have been quite enormous in awakening the "Outer World" to Diego and the Moron style and scene, but it would be great to have some input on how Chris Carnes came to learn about Diego del Gastor. I'll keep digging, but if anybody can contribute additional facts or testimony........

Carlos

Continuing my research into the history of Chris Carnes, I still have not located any information that tells us how Chris Carnes found out about Diego del Gastor and the flamenco scene in Moron de la Frontera. A guess (only a guess) would be that Carnes spoke with David Serva in 1963, perhaps in New York City, after Serva had returned from Spain and his mind-changing first encounter with Diego (due to the efforts of Donn Pohren). I have not yet found any other pathway of information about Diego and Moron available at that time that did not pass through Donn Pohren first.

Regarding Chris' (first?) wife, her name is given variously as Maria Silver or Moreen Silver. My research indicates that her name is Moreen Sondra Silver (Carnes), and that she sings or sang flamenco as Maria la Marrurra. That name appears on several CDs and DVDs. Moreen Silver currently is engaged in international trade, publicity, PR, etc. as Silver Press in Madrid. Can anyone supply any more information about her career as a cantaora, Maria la Marrurra?

Carlos

The following is an undocumented story:
Chris learned of Diego through flamencos associated with Perico el del Lunar when he was studying with him in Spain 1963. They had told Chris about Diego and Chris went to Moron de la Frontera 1964 to find Diego and when he asked about Diego he was sent to Pepe's bar where they met is one story, and the other is he met Diego walking down the street. We do know that Chris arrived in Spain Sept 28, 1963 on his 21st birthday and it was in 64 before he journeyed to Moron. Had he known of Diego through David Serva in New York, he would have gone straight to Moron. I think it is safe to say Chris didn't hear of Diego until he had spent time studying with Perico el del Lunar and Juan Maya "El Marote.

I know nothing about Chris's wife, but do know his daughter Carmen is involved in flamenco.

I tried emailing some that might know and haven't got a response yet. I think Carmen has a website and you might be able to contact her and find out some of the info about her dad.

Sam, thanks for your continued digging into the discovery of Diego and the Moron scene by Chris Carnes. Your latest input is "undocumented"; can you tell us more about from whom or where you heard of the Perico el del Lunar connection to Chris' discovery of Diego?

I've also been digging--exchanging emails with someone (I will not name at this time, maybe later) who was very familiar with Chris Carnes in the early years in Spain. That source tells me that Carnes--to the best of the source's knowledge--learned of Diego from the first edition of The Art of Flamenco. This is certainly possible; however the first edition of the book has a Preface dated July 1962, and a copyright of 1962--this leaves maybe a year to two years to get the book into Chris' hands. Also, while the book praises Diego del Gastor, it does not link him to Moron, nor does the book discuss the flamenco scene in Moron. So I'm not convinced of the accuracy of the connection to Pohren via the book; it's entirely possible, but more evidence is needed. The search goes on......

Carlos

Continuing my lonely quest to unravel the history of the connection(s) between these three, I offer my latest theories: In Lives and Legends of Flamenco, p.317, Pohren tells us of a young American guitarist from Los Angeles, playing guitar a la Mario (Escudero). This guitarist looked for Pohren in Spain and asked him about old-time flamenco. Pohren played for him recordings of Manolo de Huelva and Melchor de Marchena, and then the young man went south "to take in a little of the atmosphere around Sevilla, more particularly Diego del Gastor and a few others. He came back a changed man, stating that he was just beginning to understand flamenco for the first time." Chris Carnes, from Los Angeles, studied with Mario Escudero, went to Spain in 1963, thence to Moron in 1964. I conclude from this that Chris Carnes thus followed David Serva's path to Spain, to Donn Pohren, and thence to Diego in Moron. There is no necessary contradiction here with the fact that Carnes had previously studied with Perico el del Lunar and Juan Maya in Spain. For all we know, Carnes may have learned of Perico from Donn Pohren's The Art of Flamenco. As I have previously posted, someone who knew Carnes very well believes that Carnes learned of Diego (and why not Perico also?) through Donn Pohren.

Regarding the possible identification of Pohren's "George" and "Mary" with Chris and Moreen Carnes: we have three possibilities, it seems to me: (1) G & M were really some other couple, not Chris and Moreen; (2) G & M were Chris and Moreen, but Donn Pohren told lies about them; and (3) G & M were Chris and Moreen, and Pohren's stories are true. I certainly don't (yet) know which possibility is correct, but, again, I ask why Donn Pohren would go out of his way to libel Chris and Moreen Carnes?

Carlos (Still questing.)

Why couldn't Escudero have told Carnes about Perico del Lunar? It doesn't make sense to me that Carnes would have waited a year or more to seek out Diego if he knew Pohren. Pohren did not have the close relationship with Diego that Carnes, Serva, and some others did. I think this bothered Pohren and also the fact that the Finca was NOT where the real gypsy flamenco was happening in Moron. If one reads only Pohrens books for their information on Moron de la Frontera, then it is easy to get the idea that Pohren and the Finca were the main attractions and Pohren and the del Gastors were inseparable.

Pohren's account of George and Mary basically blames Mary for being above doing any work because of her delicate hands. After the final straw when they locked themselves in their room instead of helping with cleanup, did Pohren mention that George and Mary were pot users and in violation of Finca rules. Pohren claims he and George were best of buddies before George wed Mary and they came to the Finca. If so why didn't he know George smoked pot? Why did he offer them room and board for helping out around the Finca if he knew they were in violation of his strict rules? I think something else was involved and Pohren decided to write a colorful enhanced story for his book and avoided using real names because of the fame of Chris Carnes and Chris's relationship with Diego. I think the addition of the pot use at the end of his case against Mary was how he justified dismissing George. I have no idea if the story is factual or not or how much Pohren might have embellished this story, but I do see Pohren painting himself as not being to smart if he was best of buds with George and having known him for a few years and he had no clue he smoked pot until after they didn't show for the cleaning detail and then later discovered George had attempted to grow pot on the Finca grounds.

Too many conflicting stories that we will never know the facts about even though many of the people involved are still alive. IMO Pohren is due a lot of credit for bringing attention to Moron, but he wasn't the Messiah some think he was. I have heard stories that Pohren was a pothead and his building his empire out of town was to grow pot unnoticed. It seems many of his help he accuses of being potheads or just lazy bums or taking advantage of him somehow. This may be true or may be paranoia. I have also heard stories that the Finca was just a glorified house of prostitution. Maybe some truth in all the stories, but I sure couldn't make a judgment on what is true and what isn't.

Here are some more thoughts ... There is nothing in the time frame or geography that leads us to believe Pohren knew Carnes before Carnes arrival in Moron. Pohren was in Mexico City years earlier than Carnes and Pohren was in Spain when Carnes was in Mexico after leaving Los Angles. Carnes left Mexico inspired to meet gypsy guitarist in Spain (story told by Carmen Carnes). All the published stories agree that Carnes arrived in Spain on his 21st birthday and his first teachers were Lunar and El Morte. Maybe during this year he met Pohren or read a copy of his book hot off the press, but there is no record of such.

I think Pohren met Carnes first in Moron. It is interesting that never in any of the Carnes obituraties even the one written by his daughter does Pohren get mentioned. Carnes died 2000 and Pohren 2007. Since Carnes was so close to Diego and Moron and Pohren the famous flamenco writer having known Carnes, it seems odd that Pohren never wrote an obituary for Carnes unless there was very hard feeling and Pohren still harbored resentment. This leads me to believe that the George and Mary were Carnes and wife as Jacinto seemed to verify. I sure Carnes was not happy that Pohren found it necessary include this story in his book even though he changed the names.

I also find it strange that Pohren never mentions by their real name many of the important accomplished students of Diego. His stories make one believe that any foreigner not living at the Finca was no doubt living in town because of drug use or association. Now in other post we have discussed the lack of privacy that students of Diego experienced. Diego was anti drug according to Pohren and other sources so if Carnes and others were pot users this creates a conflict in Pohrens own statements.

I think it is all about jealousy and the fact that Diego never hailed Pohren as a great guitarist or American gypsy or showed him the special attention that he did others. Pohren and Diegos relationship was mostly business. Pohren was a businessman that loved flamenco and he figured out a way to make a good living at it as he couldn't live like a gypsy as other foreign friends of Diego did and this was the inspiration for the Finca and his books. The dinero took precedence over the puro gitano flamenco.

What is your opinion on why Pohren omitted using real names and never praised the outstanding disciples of Diego?

Sam, I appreciate both your replies themselves and also the effort you have made, like my own, to get at whatever facts there are in this matter. However we differ on the degree to which we rely on specific and public, quotable references that others can examine. For instance, we have Donn Pohren's published account that a young, Los Angeles-based American guitarist, enamored of the toque of Mario Escudero, comes to visit him in Spain in 1963, etc., as per my previous post. I take this story at face value, unless there are facts adduced that contradict this. It's hard to identify this person as anyone other than Chris Carnes. In contrast, is there any evidence to support your supposition that Mario Escudero sent Carnes or anybody to Spain, to seek out Perico, or Diego, or whomever? You state that there is no evidence that Pohren knew Carnes before Carnes arrived in Moron. If you mean no evidence other than Pohren's published account, you may be correct. But all I go by is what has been placed in the record. My speculations are based, as much as possible, on "facts" that can be accessed in books or on the Web. Everyone is free to speculate 'til the cows come home, but I'll stick to what is "known" or to what can be most rationally concluded from what is "known".

Regarding Pohren's not mentioning others who had studied under Diego, I refer all to pp. 331-338 in Lives and Legends of Flamenco, 1964. There, Pohren mentions, specifically, Chris Carnes, Chet Creider, David Jones (Serva), and Rick Lees as having studied with or studying with Diego.

I'd really like to stay as closely grounded to available data as we can in discussing these issues. All of the psycho-sociological speculating is fun to read, but what is the factual basis?

Carlos

Let's now also address the "George" and "Mary" situation. Nowhere does Pohren claim to be "best buddies" with George. He refers to George only as "a friend". Nowhere does Pohren say that he knew, in advance, of G & M's drug use prior to their coming to the finca. He may have known. Also, nowhere can I find Pohren telling me that he believed that "any foreigner not living at the Finca was no doubt living in town because of drug use or association." Again, concerning George's possible drug use, how's this for a scenario?: "George, I know that you smoke or have smoked pot but if I hire you to come work at the finca, can you please not smoke pot while you're at the finca? I might get into a lot of trouble with the authorities if they find you smoking pot here at the finca. You won't do pot here? Great! You can start tomorrow!" But this is indeed just speculation on my part. We may never know the truth about "George" and "Mary"--who they were; what they did.

Carlos