Jacinto wrote:Carlos
Sorry, but the way Brook writes it, it as if he is claiming that Diego had as much fame in the US as did Sabicas, C. Montoya, and Paco de Lucia. That is surely absurd

I don't know if the book mentions how Chris and Maria his wife got to Moron, but in Pohren's "Lives and Legends", Chris and wife are pretty cruelly described there under another name. They worked at the Finca for a while (that's what Pohren writes about)--but I don't know when and for how long. When I got to Sevilla-Moron in 1968, Chris was living in Sevilla working at La Cuadra

Jacinto

Jacinto, Thanks for your input on Moron and confirming that it was Chris and Maria that Pohren speaks badly of. When you were there did Diego and nephews still play at the Finca or was that relationship strained because of the falling out with Chris and Maria? The majority of the stories I have heard confirm that there were two groups of flamencos in Moron, the Pohren Finca group and the in town Diego/ Pepe's bar group. I agree on the Zern statement being absurd. I think Diego was as well known as Sabicas, etc in the SF Bay area guitar scene, but outside of that he didn't exist except for a few that had come across Pohrens books or had contact with the Bay area flamencos. I think Zern had poor wording and did not think that statement out very clearly. I would enjoy hearing more about your experiences in Moron. How long were you there, etc.?

Carlos, I will see if I can find the write up on Carnes that indicates he heard of Diego and the Moron scene from his connection with Lunar. Here is the reasoning ... if Carnes knew of Diego through Pohrens writing, why did he go to Spain to study with Lunar first? Wouldn't he have gone directly to Moron and the Finca? I think this write up by Steve indicates he went to Spain seeking out gypsy flamenco guitarist. If he knew of Diego he wouldn't have gone seeking gypsy guitarist. I am sure Steve could clear this up as he knew Chris, but he is very busy and always traveling it seems. http://www.stevekahn.com/flamenco/chris_carnes.html

Jacinto and Sam, I am enjoying this interchange enormously--I just hope everyone else can enjoy it as much as we obviously do.

1) I'm not sure about how to accurately determine which flamenco guitarists were most well-known in America by what audiences at what times. I'll look yet again at Zern's essay, but it sounds right to me that Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, Mario Escudero, PdL, Fernando Sirvent, and God knows who else were/are well known to some audiences, sometimes, somewhere in the US, and that maybe Diego was less well known than some of them, or all of them. It'll be a trick to figure it out.

2) I'm looking for some source who will state, based on their own, direct, "I was there and I saw it" knowledge, that Chris Carnes and Maria (Moreen) are the couple described by Pohren in AWOL. Others have told me that, from what they know/knew of Carnes, he could not have been the person described. In a recent edition of The Art of Flamenco, Pohren writes, under the heading The Cante and the Non-Spaniard: "A few non-Spaniards have thrown themselves very seriously into the subject, and have emerged with impressive knowledge about the various forms and how they should be sung. One woman, Elaine Dames, competed in the 1959 Cordoba Concurso de Cante Jondo. Another, Moreen Carnes, (Maria la Marrurra), recently cut a Spanish LP,accompanied by Melchor de Marchena." This doesn't sound like the woman Pohren describes in AWOL, but I could be wrong. But beliefs, opinions, hunches, hearsay are not a substitute for first-hand testimony.

3) Since we're on the subject of Maria la Marrurra, what can anybody tell me about this cantaora?

Carlos

Odano Icifa wrote: ... cante is definitely for the few.

This is so true. I came to flamenco in my 40s, which is late by comparison, and cante definitely takes some getting used to

Odano Icifa wrote: And it is also easy to understand why people are drawn to solo guitar, hearing it and possibly wanting to play it themselves, as the guitar is the primo instrument of romance and virtuosity--

This is probably how most people arrive at flamenco these days, by listening to modern solo guitar compositions or the work of Paco Pena.


Alan

The nasty remarks that PdL made about Diego (cf Brook Zern's article) were unworthy of an artists with the stature of PdL. He was jealous that so many aficionados in the US, Japan, and various parts of Europe who came over to speak to him would always ask about Diego del Gastor Many of these had no experience with Moron toque, else they wouldn't have bothered speaking to PdL (who,by the way, was close friends with Paco del Gastor for a long time). Interestingly, the interview is included in the book "Guitarras de Cal"by Fernando Gonzalez-Caballos Martinez, a 245 page book which (aside from the PdL interview) is chock full of praise and history of Moron toque which, as I have mentioned before, has a lineage dating from before Diego and back to Paco de Lucena.

We must remember the situation in Spain during Franco's time- There were no flamenco festivales, very few aficionados could afford phonographs, when jukeboxes arrived in bars they were mainly filled with Pepe Marchena .So its not as though a large public ever heard most of the "well-known" guitarists live. And even those who recorded may not have recorded their "best." The prime example was the great guitarist Manolo de Huelva. A guitarist with a reputation of being THE best, even though he wold never record his best stuff or play it in front of guitarists who might be able to "steal" falsetas from him. The few solo recordings he made don't indicate anything extraordinary. But if you listen carefully to the recordings of his accompaniment - mainly of cante bonito singers - you can spot the greatness in his toque. Perfect compas and thumb-work where you can distinguish the sound made by the flesh hitting the string before the nail does-and always consistent.

As I wrote before, Diego had a reputation in Spain in spite of not recording (one 45 rpm) or traveling much.
He was a favorite player for Fernanda de Utrera, Juan Talega, Manolito el de la maria and, before they had a falling out, Antonio Mairena. How could he not have a reputation from that fact alone?

That Manuel Vallejo winner of the first Lave del Oro of cante, and very famous in his time, hired Diego to tour with him is certainly a mark of recognition early one (Diego said he quit Vallejo because, as is common for singers, he sang with a hand on Diego's shoulder. Except in this case every time Diego tried to play a decent length falseta, Vallejo would squeeze Diego's shoulder painfully. Diego could stand for that and quit.

In the tradition of his teacher Pepe Naranjo who, when the King of Spain (Alfosno XIII?) was visiting a nearby-town had heard of Pepe Naranjo (Hm-it seems that Moron toque already had a reputation) and sent a messenger to get Pepe. Naranjo replied "No-I don't feel likeplaying today."

As for Fernanda saying "she lost her voice in Moron." I was there when (or perhaps she said it more than once and I was there one of the times) she said that. She was referring just to the many many times she had sung in Moron with Diego.

IMO, and of many others, David Serva is the best foreign discipulo of Diego's toque. So much so, that I hesitate to even call him "an American who knows Moron style" rather than "A Moron style guitarist who used to be an American (or lived in the US)."

Carlos, I was there and can confirm that Pohren is giving an inaccurate description of Chris and Maria in A Way of Life.

Jacinto

PS: While Sabicas was a master technician, IMO, Perico del Lunar far excelled him musically and as toque flamenco, even though Perico was not a soloist.

Just for one Moronies opinion- While I am a super fan of Diego and have spent substantial times in Moron. believe it or not he is not my favorite guitarist for some cantes. No one came near him in solea, in bulerias, and in tango. But I much prefer Melchor por siguiryas and -for a whole bunch of styles -Perico completes my 3 favorites. We are NOT cult members. He was a great musician. LISTEN to his music you who doubt.

Jacinto, Thanks for the great reply. IMO Pohren's Finca wasn't the real Moron experience. It is sad that Pohren had to embellish and according to some outright fabricate stories to spice his book. I never realized that it was Chris and Maria Carnes he was degrading in his book until you mentioned it. I lost a lot of respect for Pohren and now question how many other of his stories he embellished to make his books interesting.

I agree on Perico del Lunar and think his guitar skills showed brilliance and genius. I include many of his falsetas in my Solea and find while some appear easy, they are difficult if played to convey the intended feeling. My favorite besides Diego is Pepe Naranjo. I find his falsetas (or ones attributed to him) addicting. The melody while maintaining a strong rhythm is remarkable. I had difficulty composing falsetas to connect his falsetas to other Masters falsetas, but when I discovered them they made the transition smooth. I agree on Melchors siguiryas and also think his tangos rival Diego's.

Many listen to Diegos playing and dismiss it as simple because they do not understand what flamenco is about. Diego used the guitar as a means of expressing the flamenco his mind possessed, just as Fernanda used her voice. The first importance was put on flamenco and second what vehicle one expressed it with.

My opinion of PDL sank lower when I heard his remarks made in ignorance. He tries to train flamenco, flamenco did not train him like it did Diego, Melchor, Perico, Pepe, etc. He manufactures flamenco, where as the others like Diego played what they felt and flamenco manufactured them. There is a difference IMO.

Is there any recording of David Serva? From what I understand he is more of an improvisational player and a master accompanist. I wish my health would allow me to spend time in the SF Bay area when he visits. A lot of great lesser known and appreciated flamencos visit or live in the SF Bay area.

Interesting comments by Jacinto and Sam about the alleged identification of Pohren's "George" and "Mary" as being Chris Carnes and Moreen Silver Carnes. Both treat this as established fact, and it may well be fact, but it is not yet established. I ask again: does anyone assert, of their own, direct, "I was there at the time" knowledge, that "George" and "Mary" were Chris and Moreen? Who could tell us this? Donn Pohren or Chris Carnes (not possible now), Moreen Silver, somebody who was there at the finca at that time (April-May 1966), or someone who was told by Donn Pohren that "George" and "Mary" were Chris and Moreen. I do not dispute that Chris and Moreen may have been George and Mary--I just want the name of somebody who has asserted that with great and believable eyewitness authority. Jacinto, can you supply evidence of a direct nature, of the kind I mention above?

I do not dispute that, if Chris and Moreen were George and Mary, they may have been libelled by Pohren. Question: what would be Donn Pohren's motive for telling lies about Chris and Moreen? The possibility remains that "George" and "Mary" were actually another couple entirely. My purpose here is not to argue but to get real answers.

Carlos

And now to address Jacinto's remark: "...the way Brook writes it, it is as if he is claiming that Diego had as much fame in the US as did Sabicas, C. Montoya, and Paco de Lucia. That is surely absurd." I agree that if that is what Brook Zern was claiming, it would indeed be absurd. But I don't think that is the case. Zern writes:

"Carlos Montoya...found a huge audience in the U.S."

"...Sabicas...commanded far larger and more appreciative audiences than Spain could have offered."

"...Mario Escudero also found success (in New York)."

"...Manitas de Plata...enjoy(ed) huge financial and popular success."

Then Zern writes about Diego: "Nonetheless, his reputation outside of Spain acquired such a powerful mystique that some Americans and other non-Spaniards journeyed to Moron de la Frontera to seek him out." I think that there is a big difference between having a huge audience or huge financial and popular success, and having a powerful mystique. Zern is saying that the powerful mystique came from a combination of Pohren's remarks in his books, and from the first-hand enthusiasm about Diego on the part of Serva and Carnes, and was a mystique aroused among people who found themselves seriously interested in "authentic" cante-rooted flamenco. In comparison with an audience for Carlos Montoya, Sabicas, or Manitas de Plata, or PdL, this population would be very small, yet would be very highly motivated, knowledgeable ,and enthusiastic. Zern's Diego--in the U.S., much fame? No! Powerful mystique? Si!

Carlos