Since this is a worthwhile discussion, I decided to start a thread on this board instead of continuing it in our introduction board. A lot of beginners get confused which methods are best for them to learn traditional flamenco. I look forward to all the various opinions. Remember these are my opinions and in no way should be taken as fact. Everyone has different experiences and conceptions and all opinions are valuable. There is no substitute for a good teacher, but good flamenco teachers are few and far between and besides the lesson fee it can cost some real cash just to get to them.

The Graf Martinez is a good method, but is geared to the modern sound. He teaches the modern 3 finger rasqueado, etc and makes the statement no one uses the 4 finger anymore or does strumming alternating I and M. Also I didn't like the mixing of palos. I think it best to get several falsetas and rhythm patterns down in one palo, say the Soleares before learning another. I think all in all it is a great method and my main dislikes of it were personal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZmeEBrXJHs Here is a girl that trys to play a lot of compositions using GM, but should concentrate say on this Solea and smooth it up before trying to play alegrias or bulerias, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_owuEQizyng

What I have seen of the Juan Martin I liked for the most part. My main objection is it seems that too many learn bad habits from it. Not that he teaches bad habits purposely, but the way the method is arranged allows students to get the feeling of progress and move on too fast. View some of his students on utube. While you have to admire this lad for trying and working hard, the bad habits he has developed will take years to break if he doesn't get help soon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX8sa6Cb_9I Personally I find Juan sort of phony. I am not sure why, but just a feeling I get. He makes me feel uncomfortable and again just a personal thing. I do feel bashing him is wrong and destructive behavior. Voice your opinion politely and respect the opinions of those that like Juan Martin. There is a lot of good material in his methods and should not be discarded as a joke.

Oscar Herrero I am not to familiar with, but what I have seen I liked and someday will invest in more of his material. I don't understand much Spanish, but can figure out what he is saying for the most part. I still want to get his metronome when I can spare the bucks. Check this kid out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5SK-jOoiC8

Juan Serrano I like and think it is a good method, but is more for intermediate players and one may have to learn rasqueados from another source or have one down before studying his material or be one that can learn how to play his rasqueado. I never could get it smooth. He makes it sound easy and it is certainly a smooth beautiful rasqueado.His methods are done in English as best he can do it and he comes across very authentic and is certainly a master flamenco player. His material is focused on learning compositions rather than falsetas and rhythm patterns. Here is an example of a kid that learned this composition but is very choppy and plays his falsetas too fast. I use to play this composition a few years ago and gave it up as my triplet was lacking in dynamics. This player adds some "scratching" to improvise and I find it irritating. All in all I have to admire this kid for his talents and hope he learns to smooth this beautiful piece out and slow it down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhYHRjoJ74 now a better player on the same piece http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J46eGwqz ... re=related

Jose Martinez Caro offers free online lessons on utube and I really like his approach. It would be tough for beginners. I like his personality and presentation and wish he had out a printed method and DVD. The tab he holds up is hard to read at times. Still it is FREE. I find the electric guitar on the wall disturbing, but again just a personal nitpick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSelK40b ... re=related

This is my opinion on these methods and should be taken as just that. I think any serious student needs to buy several different methods and make their own judgments. The moral of this post is this: No matter what method you use, you have to be the teacher as well as the student. You have to compare what you play with the DVD example. Try playing along. IMO concentrate on every falseta and rhythm pattern separate until you get it perfect for compas and phrasing. It is better to know only one falseta played perfect, than 100 played lousy. Concentrate on the compas more than the sound at first. Even if you kill half the notes don't stop, keep going and stay on compas. Correcting dead or buzzy notes is easier than correcting compas.

Good summary!

Sam, regarding Juan Martin, I get the impression that you're not referring to his method, El Arte Flamenco de la Guitarra but rather to his repertoire books Play Solo Guitar with Juan Martin (Vols 1-2). Is that correct?

As a noob, I use the Graf-Martinez books and Martin's "El Arte ..." together as a method. I use the "Play Solo ..." books for supplemental repertoire. I find that this combination (along with the Graf-Martinez DVDs and miscellaneous Youtube videos) is what best helps me along while I'm still looking for a teacher.

I agree with your assessment of the Serrano texts. I thought that they were meant to be used as textbooks with the guidance of a teacher. They don't seem that suited for self-study.

I have the Graf-Martinez books and DVDs. I'm learning something from thenm, that's for sure, despite having very little time to practise, but then I've got my Grade 8 in Classical Guitar and play with the local guitar orchestra (and have a full-time job) so I figure I've got some learning ability.

I didn't try any of the others mentioned - I forget how much I paid for the Graf-Martinez material, but it wasn't cheap. I do have Toques Flamencos by Paco Pena, which is subtitled "Music from the student repertoire" and it's clearly for a more advanced student than me. It was a birthday present a couple of years ago and comes with a CD but I've no idea what it cost.


Alan

GuitarVlog wrote:Good summary!

Sam, regarding Juan Martin, I get the impression that you're not referring to his method, El Arte Flamenco de la Guitarra but rather to his repertoire books Play Solo Guitar with Juan Martin (Vols 1-2). Is that correct?

Yes that is correct the repertoire books. I am not familiar with the Arte Flamenco de la guitarra book. I may try to get a copy of it.

Alan Green wrote: I do have Toques Flamencos by Paco Pena, which is subtitled "Music from the student repertoire" and it's clearly for a more advanced student than me. It was a birthday present a couple of years ago and comes with a CD but I've no idea what it cost.


Alan

I am not familiar with this one. It sounds interesting. Paco Pena plays some good flamenco.

i'm still working on the graf martinez books so i have no experience with the other books yet. one thing i don't like about this book is that it emphasizes the a,m,i fingers a lot and the pinky barely gets any work. i have all ten fingers so i don't see the point in excluding any of them.

at_leo_87 wrote:i'm still working on the graf martinez books so i have no experience with the other books yet. one thing i don't like about this book is that it emphasizes the a,m,i fingers a lot and the pinky barely gets any work. i have all ten fingers so i don't see the point in excluding any of them.

GM emphasizes the modern rasqueado. Some of the statements he makes concerning the old style SAMI rasqueado are not correct IMO. Many of the old masters could do it smoother than GM ever dreamed of with his AMII rasqueado. Also the old school is more dynamic. GM has a lot of good ideas and practice in his method, but it is definantly focused on more modern technique.

The little finger (4) on the left hand is most important in learning speed and accuracy in flamenco. In places where the 3rd finger can be substituted, one loses speed and accuracy. It is all about minimizing movement. The path of the least resistance.

Doing ligatos with the 4th finger is crucial to playing flamenco. Holding a basic chord formation and doing ligatos with the 4th finger is very common in flamenco and requires a strong and accurate little finger. I use what I call the little finger exercise. Use picato imimimimim, etc.

E 1 string ____________141414242424343434242424141414----------------------------------------

Start with the 1st finger down on the first fret and hold it down ... never lift it in this exercise. Then hold the 2nd finger down and do the da da da da da da ... leave it down ... then the 3rd finger down and do the 6 beats. Remember at this point the 1, 2, and 3 finger are held down. Now just reverse the system. Lift the 3rd fingere and do the 6 beats, now lift the 2nd finger and do the 6 beats. Now slide the first finger to the 2nd fret and repeat this exercise, then slide to the 3rd fret, etc. Play it up the fingerboard.

KEY POINTS ...

Do not lift any fingers until necessary

Play smoothly and slowly

Only speed up when you can do it accurately

Use imimim picato at first then use mamama picato and then asasas picato

I use s for the right hand little finger as it is the old school Spanish designation. It stands for menique or little finger. Why an s was used I don't know. Why it was replaced by e, I don't know.

Get the idea? Your left hand little finger is moving 3 times more than any other finger. It has moved 15 times, the 1st finger hasn't moved and the 2nd and 3rd fingers have moved twice. This is the faster way to build strength in the 4th finger while also developing a smooth picato. Sounds easy? Give it a try. To do this exercise smoothly is harder than it sounds. One can use other strings to add more difficulty. When I get my preamp back, I will make a sound clip for you to give you the idea. I am not setup for video.

Try the little finger exercise using ligato on the 4th finger. Pluck the other notes and ligato all the 4th finger notes. This is all boring but the best way to build your 4th finger quickly. STOP when your hand gets sore. Wait a while before doing it again. You will see results within a week if you do this daily smoothly and accurately.

Hi

I have no teacher (never have) and am looking for a tutorial dvd for improved technique and hand positioning (I've been learning from tabs and cd up till now (Luigi Marrachini and Juan Serrano) and probably already have some bad habits. I can play 8 Sevillanas (not without mistakes though) and a Fandangos de Huelva, my picado and Rasgeado both amii and sami are at least starting to sound correct but my triplet, arpeggio and tremelo are all pretty poor and my pulgar usually suffers from a short nail.

So from what I've seen its a toss up between the Gerhard Graf-Martinez and the Merengue de Córdoba dvd's (didn't see the latter mentioned in this thread, although I have seen it recommended on another forum) Those singing the praises of Merengue de Córdoba dvd claim they prefer his style/technique but I really don't have a clue. Anyone here seen both and care to give me their opinion? there is a clip from the Merengue dvd on Flamenco-world but he is not giving any instruction in it.

......Wow that is a great practice tip for both left and right hand menique i will be implementing your techniques in my training as of today......

Many thanks

garyo

I am not familiar with the Merengue de Córdoba method. A well known flamenco suggested the Manuel Granados Guitarra Flamenca books with cd's, so my wife got them for me for my birthday. I find them excellent but he progresses from simple to difficult too quickly IMO. IMO they are more oriented toward "pretty" flamenco with arpeggios and tremolo. I am finding lots of useful exercises and ideas and would rate these 4 method books and cd's excellent, but difficult for any beginner. There are a lot of methods out there that are good, but none replace a teacher. Mariano Cordoba has a great method. Don't over look Juan Martin's methods but don't rush into playing his compositions. IMO one should spent months with basic rhythms and falsetas working on compas. Get it right before trying anything of any difficulty. Learn palmas! Utube has some free videos on this. Start with Soleares and learn to count as you play.

I agree with the Juan Martin Videos. It's great but be careful. It's kind of tricky because since its "graded" you feel like you wanted to jump/skip ahead and feel that you've accelerated to a new GRADE.