Hello All,

First, thanks for all your posts on the old style guitar topic. Lots of good stuff here.

Bob, your techno-weenie approach is really appealing to me. I use Spectra Plus for both wood testing (Q measurements) and making frequency response curves for voicing the box. I've recently come up with a method of voicing using a taped on back, if anyone is interested.

One of the main differences between classical and flamenco is the height of the bridge saddle. The fact that putting in a lower saddle makes the strings closer to the fretboard is incidental, except of course for buzzes. The real effect is to shorten the lever arm formed by the saddle, and hence to lower the torque that the strings put on the bridge.

That classic sounded surprisingly flamenco with the lower saddle because it was a relatively large percentage change in height from the classic saddle. I made a Brazilian "Negra" in 1965, and gave the client three bridge saddles. A high one for playing classical music, a low one for flamenco, and one in between for when he got tired of changing bridge saddles (;->)...

My theory of the evolution of the flamenco is that it was originally set up with a normal classical height bridge saddle. Being a cheap guitar, made in a hurry from thin materials (to save money), it soon began to fold up with string tension. The poor man's neck reset is to pare down the bridge saddle. Eventually the strings are down to 6mm off the low quality pine sound board, and sustain is nil. Old style flamenco grew up around that kind of sound.

Gene Clark's tape on the strings trick, that you saw in my video, kills the high overtones as well as the sustain, so that's why I said I was going to try to make some guitars that were "perhaps not that bad".

Cheers,

Brian

Hi Brian,

That's an interesting theory about the evolution of the flamenco guitar neck angle. It sounds plausible given how lightly made some of these guitar were made.
The other reason for the lower bridge is to ensure that the guitar sounds correct. If the strings are 10 mm off the top and the top is super thin, the guitar probably won't sound very good, if it was braced in a traditional manner, with low, relatively flat bracing.
The last really nice flamenco guitar I had in my shop was a 1975 Reyes spruce top flamenco. The strings were about 7mm off the top, and I suspect it was made this way deliberately, judging from the bridge design, which worked fine for this string height.

I hear a lot of players say that they like the strings close to the soundboard to facilitate the golpe. How close? I think 10 mm, the ideal for a classical player, is probably too high for most flamenco artists.

Dominelli Guitars

Marcus –

I was wondering if you can provide any information on the thickness of the various woods on a typical Manuel Reyes flamenco guitar from the seventies or eighties.

On another note, (no pun intended) the distance of the strings from the soundboard has nothing whatever to do with golpe, which can easily be executed even if the action is higher than on a typical classical guitar.

Ramon

Hi Ramon,
I've had access to three nice Reyes flamencos lately, all blancas. One was from the late 60's, and two were from the early/ mid 70's. The one from the 60's was my favorite.

I took many measurements from two of them, unfortunately I was unable to get top thicknesses since I don't have a hacklinger gauge. But from probing around the top, and pushing on it I would guesstimate a thickness of about 2mm, spruce of course. The bridge was full size 184mm by 28mmm and the wings were 4mm thick.

I recently had a Ruck flamenco in the shop, owned by the same guy who had the 1975 Reyes. I really liked the sound of the Ruck, but it was different from the Reyes.

I don't think 10 mm is too high for the golpe either, but I've heard some really good players tell me they like the strings lower, so I go along with that....
Marcus

Manos Lentas wrote:A thought on the weight of your guitars is the additional weight of the neck wood used and tuning machines. What wood was used on the necks and what tuning device does the Ramirez classical and Contreras flamenco have? This might give a clue if the tone woods are thinner on the Contreras flamenco.

The 1966 Ramirez Classical neck-wood is Cuban Mahogany with an Ebony fingerboard. That guitar has a machine head with gold engraved plates, mother-of-pearl knobs, and bone rollers.

The 1977 Ramirez flamenco sales invoice specifies the top, back and side woods, but doesn't mention the neck. However, the neck-wood looks identical to the Ramirez Classical neck-wood, so it probably is also Cuban Mahogany. That guitar also has an ebony fingerboard, but has Rosewood tuning-pegs instead of a machine-head.

The 1972 Contreras flamenco sales invoice also specifies the type of top, back and side woods, but doesn't mention the neck. The neck-wood on that guitar looks slightly different than the Ramirez neck-wood. Maybe it is Honduran Mahogany or some other similar wood. I don't know enough about woods to identify it.

The 2009 Tsiorba neck is Spanish Cedar. The fingerboard is Rosewood. That guitar has Ebony tuning-pegs.

I wondered about the relative weights of machine-heads vs. peg-heads while weighing the guitars. Even though machine tuning mechanisms weigh more than wooden tuning-pegs, the weight of the wood removed from the two slots on a machine-head guitar would offset some of that difference, so there may not be much actual weight difference between the two. Possibly one of the luthiers would like to comment about that.

-Bob

Marcus Dominelli wrote:If a typical flamenco luthier is building his rosewood backs (negra) at about 2mm thick, then why does he do his cypress backs about the same? Cypress is half the weight of rosewood. It needs to be thicker, not thinner.

That is a logical question with the assumption that a maker wants to make cypress guitars sound more like rosewood guitars. However, if the intention is to make rosewood guitars sound more like cypress guitars, then the converse question "why make rosewood backs so thick when they probably should be half the thickness of cypress backs" would be equally logical.

-Bob

That's funny Bob. I worked with a philosophy grad student back in my early 20's in the forest industry. He was always saying things like that. He had a way of cleverly turning things around....

But with guitar making logic only takes you so far. In fact, I think trial and error is a better teacher than logic.
The standard thickness for a classical guitar back (using rosewood) is about 2mm.
Some builders go thicker, and some go thinner,depending on the sound they're after and the wood they're using.

If the back is too thin, it can interfere with the top resonance, resulting in wolf tones, standing waves, and some frequency enhancment as well. It's not all negative, but it creates a lot of problems.
If the back is too thick it will rob the guitar of some of it's tone quality, especially the low end frequencies, and the instrument will not be as nice to listen to, especially for the player.

The reason I make my cypress backs thicker than I used to is simply because I've found that it makes my guitars sound a bit better than when they were really thin.
-M

Prominent Critic wrote:Hooray for Marcus Dominelli. I've been saying for years that flamenco guitars are getting too light weight. I have played any number of these, and besides simply feeling flimsy, they sound exactly as Marcus has described – tinny. I feel that for an authentic flamenco sound it is sufficient to make the top and bracing thinner, but not the sides and back. The greatest flamenco-sounding guitars I have ever played were by Manuel Reyes Sr. Here are two clips of Reyes guitars – the first with machine tuners, and the second with a peghead. I would guess that these two are from around the early to middle eighties, but might be earlier. I am wondering if any of our luthiers know or could find out the thickness of the top, sides, and back, on a typical Reyes guitar of the era. It might shed some interesting light on what Marcus is saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EoeDv-TKPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB17gkeQ3oY

Ramon

Hola Ramón
I am interested in your comment and therefore in what Marcus Dominelli is explaining.
First I must say that I really do not understand this matter of the construction of the guitar and the thickness of wood etc.
But what I do observe is that I like my guitars by Gerundino very much and in some way they are similar to the Reyes that you have linked to.
I have played several very sharp light flamenco guitars as you mention and the first time you play them they are exciting like the fireworks on the Noche de San Juan but as you play them more you notice that mainly they are just an explosion like a little pistol.
Bu the Gerundino guitars I have are different. Very powerful yes and with attack yes but not like a firework more like a Toro who means business.
Also the guitar of Gerundino cries and bleeds.
Different guitarists want different guitars I guess.

TomasJimenez wrote:.
Also the guitar of Gerundino cries and bleeds.
Different guitarists want different guitars I guess.

Tomas says it very well. Even among old school flamenco players preferences on guitars vary. Unfortunately makers labels sometimes are of more value than the actual sound of the guitar. If my Dominguez had been made by Reyes, it would have sold immediately for $10,000. I compared it to two Reyes when I bought it, and it sounded more "Reyes" than the real Reyes priced at $10k plus. I say it is much like a Reyes and a Gerundino mixed together. Sweet like a Reyes, but can bark like a Gerundino. I was able to locate a scales to weigh my guitar accurately for Bob's comparison chart.

Light weight division ... The Tsiorba maple and spruce with cedar neck and mechanical pegs, 650 scale at 1249 grams or 44.06 oz. Light hand rubbed French polish. 650 scale.

Medium weight division ... The Dominguez with Spanish cypress and spruce, cedar neck, and premium Fustero machines, 655 scale at 1433 grams or 50.55 oz. This guitar also has a bit larger body size and also depth than my other two. Lacquer finish.

Heavy weight ... The 1974 homebrew Brazilian Jacaranda rosewood with redwood top, mahogany and maple neck, Gotoh machines with ebony buttons at 1731 grams or 60.06 oz. Fairly heavy varnish hand rubbed. 650 scale.

All have ebony fingerboards and same strings.

Manos Lentas wrote:

TomasJimenez wrote:.
Also the guitar of Gerundino cries and bleeds.
Different guitarists want different guitars I guess.

Tomas says it very well. Even among old school flamenco players preferences on guitars vary. Unfortunately makers labels sometimes are of more value than the actual sound of the guitar. If my Dominguez had been made by Reyes, it would have sold immediately for $10,000. I compared it to two Reyes when I bought it, and it sounded more "Reyes" than the real Reyes priced at $10k plus. I say it is much like a Reyes and a Gerundino mixed together. Sweet like a Reyes, but can bark like a Gerundino. I was able to locate a scales to weigh my guitar accurately for Bob's comparison chart.

Light weight division ... The Tsiorba maple and spruce with cedar neck and mechanical pegs, 650 scale at 1249 grams. Light hand rubbed French polish. 650 scale.

Medium weight division ... The Dominguez with Spanish cypress and spruce, cedar neck, and premium Fustero machines, 655 scale at 1433 grams. This guitar also has a bit larger body size and also depth than my other two. Lacquer finish.

Heavy weight ... The 1974 homebrew Brazilian Jacaranda rosewood with redwood top, mahogany and maple neck, Gotoh machines with ebony buttons at 1731 grams. Fairly heavy varnish hand rubbed. 650 scale.

All have ebony fingerboards and same strings.

Hola Sam
I am interested in your comment about if your Dominguez was a Reyes.
Yes I have very similar experiences to you.
I have played or been very close to many guitars and often I do not find them to sound the same as they sound on a recording or in concert through a microphone.
Here are some examples and of course they are only my own personal perceptions:
The year that Vicente Amigo won the guitar competition at the Festival Nacional del Cante de Las Minas I was also competing but did not win!!!!!
Vicente was very nice chatting with everyone and not at all important about himself and he was sitting with us playing and although he did not give his Reyes to anyone to try you could hear it next to him.
It sounded nice, a little soft, similar to on stage but without the power or impact that you can here on some of his recordings.
Two or three years later again I competed with no prize!!! But we all met Paco Serrano who did win and again he sat with us in a very normal relaxed way and played his Reyes and it sounded to me especially flat with no impact at all as if the sound was dead inside the guitar.
Then in London a few years ago I attended as a student a master class of Gerardo Núñez and he asked me if we could exchange guitars for an hour while he gave the class. So he played my Gerundino and I played his Conde. Of all the guitars by Conde that I have played this one I did not dislike. It was pleasant. Very clean sound, absolutely perfect intonation, very separated notes so that if you play rajeo or alzapúa you get the strings separated not all mixed together.
But to my perception it did not have the impact that it has on his recordings, it was softer.
Gerardo did ask me if I wanted to sell him my Gerundino or if not meet him at his house and exchange my Gerundino for one of his guitars but the truth is that at that time I did not think to sell any of my guitars.
There have been many more examples all the time but here is one final example.
I have been to the house of Paco Peña several times and on one occasion he lent me one of his guitars by Gerundino on other occasions I tried a few that I was interested to buy.
Each guitar sounded louder more explosive more plaintive and overwhelming in lament than on his recording or in concert. As for Paco himself he played very similar to in concert with one noticeable exception at home he played some absurdly fast picado and complicated , not just a simple scale. Another thing you notice sitting close to him is that although he is small he has such strong hands.
I wonder if he does not play so fast live because over the years he has got the reputation of only playing very fast instead of exceptionally fast and he may want to keep that reputation. Who knows?