Hello All,

I've been involved in flamenco since the early 1960's, primarily as a guitar maker and flamenco guitar teacher. After a long hiatus, I started teaching flamenco guitar playing, and building guitars again in 1993. Also, in 2005, I began teaching guitar making on an individual basis. My website is http://www.lessonsinlutherie.com

I'm particularly fond of that old style guitar sound that is characterized by fast attack and short sustain. The old masters that I try to emulate are Domingo Esteso and Santos Hernandez. In my next batch of instruments I'll be trying to get that sound, and I'm looking for advice from other builders and players about how to accomplish it.

A friend of mine made a video clip of me demonstrating flamenco vs classical guitar types for inclusion in his video of Trevor Gore's voicing class here in my shop last August. He liked it well enough that he posted it on his youtube account. The audio fidelity is mediocre, but you can get some idea of the sound I'm looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLzSYXlLBnI

Many thanks,

Brian Burns

Welcome to the forum Brian. I recognized your website as the one advertising the mechanical pegs. I have never tried them, but will soon when Peter Tsiorba finishes my new flamenco. Again welcome to the foro and glad to have you join us and contribute your expertise.

Yes, welcome to the forum Brian. The tape trick that you demonstrate in the video is a simple and easy way to dampen string oscillations faster to shorten sustain times that I hadn't seen before.

-Bob

BrianBurns wrote:I'm particularly fond of that old style guitar sound that is characterized by fast attack and short sustain. The old masters that I try to emulate are Domingo Esteso and Santos Hernandez. In my next batch of instruments I'll be trying to get that sound, and I'm looking for advice from other builders and players about how to accomplish it.

I'm not a luthier, but it seems to me that fast-attack and short-sustain effects similar to those demonstrated in the video by sticking a piece of tape across the guitar saddle could be achieved by making a saddle of wood rather than bone, with the hardness of the wood determining the attack and sustain characteristics. Some early guitars had ebony saddles. It would be interesting to experiment with saddles made from various types of wood to learn the effects.

Robert,

You have done quite a bit of your own research and sophisticated testing. My personal conclusions so far are to avoid over-building in flamenco guitars. It seems guitars have grown heavier over the years. Knowing when to stop seems to be the trick. I personally examined several early 1900's instruments and drew a conclusion that they generally were fairly lightly buillt. So, in my latest experiment, I thought I'd push the issue to the limit, or not. Here is the link: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=131717&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Hi Brian,

Fast attack, and little sustain: How do you get it?
I've found that getting a fast attack on a guitar is fairly easy. It's largely a function of making the guitar, (especially the bridge and soundboard) light weight. The bridge weight, if kept under 18 or 20 grams, and not too stiff will give me a fast attack.
Killing sustain is a little bit trickier, and in my experience it's not a given that a lightly made guitar will automatically have less sustain.
I think that it's more productive, (and easier) to focus on reducing the overtones, and cleaning up the sound. This will trick the ear into thinking that there is less sustain, by reducing the "clutter" or "washed out" sound, especially when the guitar is played un-capoed.
Sustain can be controlled with the right hand if the action is low, and the guitar has a fast attack.

I liked the youtube video, and I think your geared pegs are great. The guitar sounded kind of muffled with that tape on the strings though. I preferred the un-muted sound. But we all have to go after that sound in the head that we like best. Cheers.

Dominelli Guitars
Victoria, B.C.
Canada

Marcus Dominelli wrote:Killing sustain is a little bit trickier, and in my experience it's not a given that a lightly made guitar will automatically have less sustain.

Some light-weight guitars may not have short sustain times, but it has been my experience that most light guitars have substantially shorter sustain-times than do most heavy guitars. Guitar sounds decay in amplitude after strings are picked because sound energy is radiated into surrounding air, vibrational energy is dissipated as heat in vibrating wood, and vibrational energy is conducted into a player's body where it is mostly lost as heat. The lighter and more flexible the top, sides and back of a guitar, the more easily they can move and radiate sound waves into surrounding air, the more heat will be lost in flexing wood, the more vibrational energy will be transmitted to a player and lost as heat, and consequently, for all these reasons, the sooner sound amplitudes will decay.

Beyond underlying physics and personal impressions of the sound qualities of light versus heavy guitars, consider the sound qualities of another light-weight stringed instrument. I spent years travelling throughout Middle-Eastern countries long ago and became fond of the sound of the Arabic oud ("al-oud" in Arabic, which literally means "the wood"). I have never played an oud, but I have been told that they are extremely light-weight instruments.

Of course, a large portion of flamenco descended from or was significantly influenced by Arabic oud music which also makes ouds interesting. Ouds were introduced into Al-Andalus (the Arabic name for parts of the Iberian Peninsula governed by the Moors that is known in English as Andalusia) from North Africa in 711 AD. Frets eventually were added and versions with frets spread north into France. The French called them "le oud," because "le" is the French definite article for "the." The ending letter "d" was mispronounced more like "t" up north. Over time the two words were contracted and the French name "le-oud" became "lute" outside Al-Andalus. Ouds are very old musical instruments. Many images of similar instruments have been found at archaeological sites in Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt.

Listen to this short clip of Aram Arakelian playing an Arabic oud (the original version without frets):

Aram Arakelian Playing an Arabic Oud.mp3


Compare that to this short clip of Deigo del Gastor playing a flamenco blanca guitar:

Deigo del Gastor Playing a Flamenco Blanca.mp3


The music of course is different, but there are strong similarities, not only in the general nature of the music, but also in the general nature of the tonal qualities of the two musical instruments. The sound qualities of Deigo's guitar typify sound qualities that many traditional flamenco music lovers like and the sound qualities of both his guitar and the oud sharply contrast with typical sound qualities of heavy guitars that are currently popular with many who prefer modern pseudo-flamenco (music that is only vaguely characteristic of the music played long ago by Flamencos) to traditional flamenco.

Now, listen to the oud clip again to refresh your memory and then compare it to this short clip of Sabicas playing another traditional-sounding flamenco blanca guitar:

Sabicas Playing a Flamenco Blanca.mp3


Again, there are sound-quality similarities even though the music and the instruments are different. Where the sound qualities of an extremely light-weight oud is so generally-similar to the sound qualities of traditional flamenco guitars it seems reasonable to assume that a modern ultra-light-weight guitar would be apt to sound more like traditional flamenco guitars than do the heavy guitars that have become so popular. I am looking forward to hearing the outcome of Peter's extremely lightweight guitar experiment to learn whether that assumption is true.

I think important to remember here that many of these early guitar made by D. Esteso and Santos Hernandez had maple back and sides and this played a factor on the tone being brighter and more responsive with less overtones. Now with my new Tsiorba maple that has this old world flamenco tone, I believe this is the biggest factor in capturing the old sound. Also a smaller size and body depth than modern flamencos.

Compare this
1903 Ramirez cypress
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/file ... amirez.htm

to my
2004 Dominguez
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/file ... guez-f.htm

both played by the same person in the same studio. Notice similar characteristics in the sound especially basses. 101 years difference, but similar sound. Only thing in common is the B & S wood. The sound of cypress.

Now for interest this 2007 copy of an old Torres using maple. Made as a classical but sold to a flamenco player as a flamenco.
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/file ... orresM.htm

Here is a link to a mp3 of a maple by J. A. Pantoja Martín
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/jap.htm


Here is a comparison of guitars both made by Peter. I hear more brightness on the maple basses than on the cypress although both have a similarity in sound which I call the Tsiorba response that has an extra presence.

Tsiorba cypress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2CCaHTu ... re=related

Tsiorba maple
http://www.youtube.com/user/tsiorba#p/u/0/XsxPeK0tnsM

Wow! The similarities between Aram Arakelian playing the oud and Deigo del Gastor playing the flamenco blanca are astounding, both the sounds of two instruments and the music. There can be little doubt about where the solea came from after listening to that.

Fernandez

Manos Lentas wrote:I think important to remember here that many of these early guitar made by D. Esteso and Santos Hernandez had maple back and sides ...

There is no doubt that the types of woods used in constructing a guitar are also important factors. Different woods have different weight per unit volume, different hardness, different stiffness, different adhesive and finish absorption characteristics, and other differences that probably affect the ways in which they respond to guitar vibrations.

My '72 Contreras flamenco negra is an extreme example of a flamenco guitar that has both extraordinarily slow attack and sustain times. I think it has those characteristics because it is heavy, the back and sides are relatively thick Brazilian rosewood, and the top is relatively thick western red cedar. It sounds much different than a traditional flamenco blanca, but it also sounds much different than a modern heavy pseudo-flamenco guitar, because of its thick top. In my judgment, even though it doesn't sound anything like Deigo del Gastor's guitar or the various guitars that were usually played by Sabicas, its balanced slow-attack and long-sustain is pleasant-sounding compared to the unbalanced ear-shatteringly-fast-attack, long-sustain of most modern heavy guitars and works well for some types of flamenco where bass notes must continue to ring for some time to sound good. I will record and post an example when I have time. However, that won't be today, because I am already late leaving for an out-of-town family affair.

-Bob