Does anyone here in the forum sing Cante Hondo? Is that part of the old school flamenco? I think Cante Hondo has not changed for centuries.

Pepe, as far as I'm concerned, Cante is, was, and will always be the beating heart of flamenco. It is erroneous to discuss flamenco without understanding that. I surely don't sing it myself, but when I am listening to flamenco, it is always cante flamenco that I listen to. In another post, I observed that the vast majority of aficionados posting about flamenco were either guitarists or wannabe guitarists, or dancers, and that governed much of what was said about flamenco. This is completely understandable in today's world; it is also understandable that very few people really enjoy or appreciate Cante in that it is so different from the kind of song that pleases most people, or that they are used to hearing. I don't mind; I understand--the Cante, traditional Cante, (as the memory of the real flamenco recedes into the past) is for the few.

I am always interested in the recommendations of those who love the Cante as to CDs they have heard that have given them much pleasure. I've posted a few of my own on this Foro. if you have any to recommend, please let us know.

Carlos

Pepe and Carlos, I don't sing flamenco but certainly appreciate it. Jondo is in reference to to oldest of flamenco forms or most profound so yes, it is the real old school. I would say it is the root of cante flamenco. I have been criticized for stating my opinion on cante before, but I feel it is the most viable of all ideas on the root of flamenco. Before I get into this discussion, Carlos have you purchased the Steve Kahn with Marysol CD yet? There is only a few pieces with Marysol singing, but these are the highlight of the CD. Don't get me wrong, Steve Kahn is a great player of Moron de la Frontera flamenco and concentrates on the basic palos, but I find Marysol's singing makes this CD worthy of recognition and purchase. It is one of my favorite flamenco CD's. I think Marysol is overlooked by many that don't understand Cante Jondo. http://www.stevekahn.com/guitarist/index.html

Now IMO cante is the root of flamenco. I acknowledge the varied influences in the development of flamenco, but think the birth of what we know as the basis flamenco palos came from the caves of Southern Spain inhabited by the gypsies both gitano and gitana. I think the gitana was the first to sing flamenco as the primitive conditions in these caves impacted the women more than the men. Probably the Soleares first came from expressing the pain of childbirth and other tragedy like the deaths of children. I think palmas came next for rhythm, then dancing, and lastly the guitar. Moron de la Frontera bears witness to this idea. Even in the 1950's guitarist were scarce in Moron. Most juergas were centered around cante with improvisational baile occurring spontaneously. There were no guitarist present. Others participated with palmas and not just hand clapping, but drumming on tables, etc. I think many overlook the importance of Moron in flamenco history. Let's face it ... the Bulerias is the most popular form today. Jerez is credited with it's birth. Bulerias gained popularity as guitar and dancing overshadowed singing. Staged choreographed shows put the idea out worldwide that this is what flamenco is ... high speed technical guitar playing and beautiful slender female dancers dressed in outrageous dresses usually preforming a Bulerias. The idea was portrayed that these were gypsy flamencos. The real gypsy juergas with folks dressed in everyday attire, their hair in disarray as they may have been up for days with little or no sleep, were not advertised and their existence wasn't know except to a few that spent time with these gypsies. Perhaps the Franco regime would have kept these gypsies isolated and this purer form of flamenco would have died out had it not been for Diego del Gastor and Donn Pohren bringing attention to Moron de la Frontera, one of the last flamenco places in Spain to succumb to commercialism. Many report it as fact that many of the gypsies of Moron during the 50's and 60's, opposed Francos religion. Their way of life centered around flamenco was contrary to what the ruling church taught. Flamenco was their religion and it was their daily way of living. If cante ever dies, then so will flamenco. IMO when a solo guitarist plays, they should try to express what a singer would. If they don't then while the music might be wonderful and even perfect for compas, it isn't real flamenco. Flamenco without expression isn't flamenco IMO. I think anyone desiring to be an accomplished guitarist must study and listen to a lot of cante to understand what expression they must put in their manipulation of the strings to make it express what a singer would. I don't understand much Spanish, but I can get the feeling intended by the singer by their vocal coloring. This is what the guitarist must capture and it is not easy. I am surprised the violin isn't more popular in flamenco since it sounds more like the human voice than a guitar. Maybe the violins popularity in flamenco is lacking because of the disregard for cante by many flamencos

Manos, I think you really hit it on the head, and in fact this whole discussion is very good, and I am glad that it finally came out. Of course any one element of the flamenco with out the influence of all, cante, dance, rhythm, and guitar, is lacking without proper exposure of the whole. The idea of playing flashy guitar without those important influences is not really playing the guitar with the origin of flamenco in mind. It is rather just flashy guitar and nothing else. Cante is so important, 'I agree with you, yes I do.........

But, records, videos, and transcriptions are being sold for guitarists with no real intention of playing traditional flamenco, and they may as well be playing jazz, or rock, or classical. And I do see that the element of flashy guitar is basically shallow. It is improper to say that solo guitar is anything flamenco without the flamenco, which is the total art. I would have to say that it is just the state of flamenco today, trying to survive in today's world. If more people could see what they are doing (and if they cared at all) then such would no longer be the case, but nothing is perfect, and you cannot expect any amount of perfection from a totally ego centered society for that is in which we live in. People do see the experiance they get from flamenco study as a stepping stone to great guitar playing and find it hard to see past their intentions of guitar glory, and forget about the flamenco and what it should be. I mean, after all, and at least I am quite honestly speaking and I hope I did not offend anyone out there, but that is what I see.......
Gary

Pepe
If you read some Spanish, try these websites for information on cante jondo .It isn't as simple as old or new or unchanging

www.tristeyazul.es
www.andalucia.org/guia telematica
caf.cica.es

I. Sam
Some perhaps disagreement
Eg Romances- which guard compas of solea por buleria -are and were sung all over Spain
Fandangos are mentioned early- and the whole compased fandango group is from nongitano folk sources
Even when they were turned into cante libre (and yes, often sung better by gitanos) that was done in the 19th century both gitanos and nongitanos (eg Chacon)

Those are not cante jondo, but some cante jondo cantes do not seem to have gitano origins- eg serranas, canas
I personally am not too hot about calling any baile "jondo" But many call baile por alegrias "jondo"--and alegrias are derived from nongitano jotas de Cadiz

Saetas are of nongitano origin- tho certainly it is debatable whether they are the source of the very gitano martinetes, carceleras, etc
We also don't really know whether siguiryas de cambio ("cabales") were "invented" by the nongitano Silverio Franconetti

2 Moron guitar
Moron guitar had a very very strongtradition before Diego
Diego's teacher was-like Diego-averse to publcity- but was very well known- Pepe Naranjo (A few of "Diego's" best known falsetas were Pepe Naranjo's
Before Naranjo were Nino de Moronand Pepe Mesa
Their school is the only sure direct descendant of Paco de Lucena

I appreciate your insight and knowledge on this subject, Jacinto. My knowledge is all secondhand, so any information one received first hand is always welcomed. Flamenco origins are no doubt much more complicated than I state and there is always controversy even among the best Flamencologist.

I have a few falsetas attributed to Pepe Naranjo that I play. They are some of my favorites and I hope I can get them recorded, just for fun, soon. I was unaware that Moron actually had more guitarist than many other towns of its size during the 50's-80's, until you pointed this out a few months back.

As far as i'm concerned "Cante Jondo" and the flamenco of today really have nothing in common.

While i respect the skill of the modern flamenco guitarists.......(IE...........Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo and many other great guitarists............)
i think they have all lost that "deep" profound sense of pain and suffering that "Cante Jondo" is all about.
To me many of the modern flamencos sound all a like and very commercialized.
everyone imitating one another right down to the facial expressions..........stagnant almost..............
it makes me mourn for flamenco..............and feel as though i'm a dying breed.

i really miss the days of pure deep song with all its power and pain and joy and suffering wrapped up in a raw and un-commercialized beauty....................it reminds me of my family and ALL they went through.

i yearn for the sound of raw raspy aggressive guitars, and the guttural piercing sound of the voice..........filled with power and not caring one bit about making money off of it or who likes it..

As far as i'm concerned.................i am "Cante Jondo" guitarist.
i'm sick of playing for dancers!!!!!!!...........and i'm kinda sick of the "Danceable Songs" as well..............no offense meant to anyone..........just me.

But to answer the question...............yes i'll sing the "deep song"...........but i'd rather play the guitar for someone else singing it.

NFalla, I welcome you here to our small but perceptive group of aficionados. Your views on flamenco are very much in line with those of many of our other participants. We tend to be relatively quiet here, as we are few and, mostly, agree on many things--often we can be found also on some other flamenco forums, maybe under other names, having vigorous debate with the many people out there who are not fully aware of the history of flamenco and the primacy of cante in that history. Feel free to go through the earlier postings, and see what has been discussed here in the past.

Carlos

Thanks for the warm welcome!!
i'm glad to be here...........

Blessings,
-nf-