I got to thinking about cross training in music on different musical instruments to better understand music, and wondered if any of you might have some thoughts, or questions about that. For example, you may learn a wind instrument such as the saxophone, clarinet, or the trumpet to better understand single note phrasing, and for ear training with ease of practicing scales and modes while sight reading. Percussion instruments are learned to explore rhythm, and poly rhythm. The piano may teach us better integration of chords and arpeggios with scales and single note phrasing; just to name a few. Vocal training can help in many ways, such as, for example, learning to accompany, while playing the piano or guitar. All very important modes of teaching and study. All of which also teach ear training in the ways in which they vary.

Not a very complicated subject, but one that I find very interesting, also, what are your experiances if any? And do you think it neccessary to cross train to study the flamenco guitar? What about the cross training of various flamenco disciplines?
Gary

i used to play drums in highschool. that helped my inner rhythm a lot. i think a lot of beginning guitar players focus so much on just hitting the notes that they forget to do it in time. they don't yet know how to "groove." i noticed a pattern in guitar players who practice by themselves a lot that they don't stay in time. so when they get out there with other people, they get really confused.

my songwriting also improved being able to see things from both a drummer and a guitar player's point of view. not so coincidentally, when i improvised with my band, i synced so well with the drummer, it was scary. now he's learning guitar, and even when i improvise with him on the guitar, we have the same connection.

another improvement drumming has made on my guitar playing is dynamics. not only was i able to come up with new rhythms to play on guitar, how i played completely changed. i started paying much more attention to accents. and it all came naturally.
i never had to consciously think about it. only after looking back now, do i notice that this change came from learning how to play drums.

they saying learning palmas because you'll be that much more useful. but it will definitely develop your rhythm too. when i learned how to think like a drummer, it was like i had a mental drummer in my head while i was playing guitar to keep me in time.

i never learned any other instrument but i have a friend who plays saxophone and guitar. his ear and creativity with single notes are amazing.

Interesting topic. I think any musical experience one can get will help, however flamenco is a tough one because it can't always be written in notation accurately. I think flamenco has to start with rhythm ... palmas, foot tapping, or banging on a table. Then listening to short rhythms or falsetas and learning them right. One may need to use tab, but be aware that if musical timing is written with the tab, it may not be exactly correct. I recently encountered this problem on a Solea falseta. I learned it from music notation and had it down perfect for timing, but when I finally heard the falseta played, I was off. The problem was in a string of ligatos. There was no way to write them in music that conveyed how they should sound. I had to listen several times to hear how to work the string to get the sound.

I think the ability to play any other instrument is useful and rewarding, but if one wants to become a great flamenco guitar player, then they have to focus on it. Many of us just play for fun, so learning other instruments just adds to our enjoyment. This reminds me of the story of the American flamenco player that was studying with Diego del Gastor. Diego saw he had a banjo, an instrument he wasn't familiar with, but Diego picked it up and started hammering out a Solea. I heard a gypsy violinist once playing a Solea on the violin. It was really an intriguing and haunting sound. The piano is a great way to learn how to read music and always an asset. Years ago when I had my string instrument shop, I learned some basics on all the instruments violins, lutes, banjos, pianos, etc., and even the harpsichord. It all added to a good understanding of stringed instruments and no doubt helped train my ear some more. As far as horns go, I never had the wind power. I learned to play American Indian flute some, but that was it.

As far as cross training in other flamenco disciplines, I think would be an asset. Learning to sing or dance would be great, but it would be time consuming. My balance issues prevent me from entertaining the idea of dance, and my singing would be excruciating and considered noise pollution.

Manos Lentas wrote: my singing would be considered noise pollution.

I love your self-depracating sense of humour Sam.

I am originally a dancer but most of my recent learning has been in Latin American percussion - mostly Samba and Maracatu. They taught me a lot about being really tight on rhythm, but also allowing some 'swing'. I'm hoping that when I get better at guitar that will all come in useful. My strong point is definitely compas and my weakness is where to put the fingers of my left hand!!

I've wondered if I might have learnt faster had I learnt another sort of guitar first, jazz or classical, because then at least I would have known my way around the fretboard. But on the other hand I don't have any habits from other techniques to unlearn!

Ailsa

Akira wrote:

Manos Lentas wrote: my singing would be considered noise pollution.

I love your self-depracating sense of humour Sam.

I am originally a dancer but most of my recent learning has been in Latin American percussion - mostly Samba and Maracatu. They taught me a lot about being really tight on rhythm, but also allowing some 'swing'. I'm hoping that when I get better at guitar that will all come in useful. My strong point is definitely compas and my weakness is where to put the fingers of my left hand!!

I've wondered if I might have learnt faster had I learnt another sort of guitar first, jazz or classical, because then at least I would have known my way around the fretboard. But on the other hand I don't have any habits from other techniques to unlearn!

Ailsa

Ailsa, I think you are better off to have learned flamenco on the guitar from the get go. While the other disciplines help train the hands, they can also add a flavor to your sound. Thanks for liking my sense of humor. I think I am a funny guy. My wife says I am a funny kind of guy ... and there is a difference! My favorite original, to my knowledge, was several years ago when a group of friends were discussing singing and I was asked if I sung. I answered yes, I use to but I had to quit because my shower got offended and shut off.

gato wrote:I got to thinking about cross training in music on different musical instruments to better understand music, and wondered if any of you might have some thoughts, or questions about that. For example, you may learn a wind instrument such as the saxophone, clarinet, or the trumpet to better understand single note phrasing, and for ear training with ease of practicing scales and modes while sight reading. Percussion instruments are learned to explore rhythm, and poly rhythm. The piano may teach us better integration of chords and arpeggios with scales and single note phrasing; just to name a few. Vocal training can help in many ways, such as, for example, learning to accompany, while playing the piano or guitar. All very important modes of teaching and study. All of which also teach ear training in the ways in which they vary.

Not a very complicated subject, but one that I find very interesting, also, what are your experiances if any? And do you think it neccessary to cross train to study the flamenco guitar? What about the cross training of various flamenco disciplines?
Gary

Someone who has previously played some other type of musical instrument or who has studied some other type of guitar playing definitely starts with an advantage compared to someone without that experience when learning to play flamenco guitar, but someone who doesn't have that prior experience will make more progress studying flamenco guitar than splitting their time between that and learning something else. Also, there is the problem of picking up bad habits that can be difficult to break, like using the left-hand thumb to mute or hold down the sixth string. Country and rock music players do that a lot. PDL even does those things playing nuevo flamenco, but it has to be unlearned to play traditional flamenco properly.

I think the question is similar to asking whether someone who wants to become good at basketball should cross-train on baseball, bowling, swimming, or some other sport. Someone who is already good at other sports may have an easier time learning to play basketball than some who isn't, but if the end-objective is to be good at basketball, someone should spend as much time a possible playing basketball.

I started with Flamenco guitar 5 years ago. The only previous music ??? experience was ringing church bells (change ringing as practised in the UK and a few other isolated places worldwide - not swinging on the end of a rope, feet dangling, as practised elsewhere and seen in films) from the age of 10 to 25 (30 years ago ). I was a fanatic campanologist. Didn't help at all

But my progress has been incredibly slow but incredibly enjoyable. The other day I saw a second-hand steel guitar at £65 and having seen 3 buskers ripping the blues I was tempted. But commonsense prevailed. I don't have enough time for flamenco

I have had the experiance that cross training deepens your understanding of music. It doesn't mean that I don't have time to play the flamenco because I do. Sometimes I play something on the guitar and work with the same idea on the keyboard sometimes going back and fourth; I feel that it actually seems to raise my ability and actually helps to get me started with proper intensity. And because of that I actually feel that with music the more instruments the better.

I have played drums and percussion, wind and bass, vocals and etc. The clarinet deepened my understanding of making music work with only single note passages and patterns, arpeggios and etc; percussion helped me to understand polyrhythm.....I think now that I come to think of it I am very blessed although I am not an egotist because of it. What ever I pick up seems to help.

I don't think that the flamenco demands such a monogamy of flamenco and flamenco only. But that is definitely me, and I know we are all different. I feel that what ever you could do to further yourself the more it is the better. And if that is to concentrate on flamenco guitar only that is perfectly ok. We all have our preferences. Music demands different experiances from different people. I like your answers, 'great posts.....I had to put it to you to find out what you all think, 'glad I did. Thanks....any more?
Gary

Flamenco guitar students have asked me this same question. Rather than going to another instrument (I do play 3 other than guitar or lute). What would help in Flamenco is a better understanding and fluency in practical guitar theory. This effort would make improvising more complex Flamenco on the fly possible.

it's pretty cool to see that a lot of people here have played other instruments besides guitar. i think on the one hand, it develops your discipline but at the same time, it's like cheating on your guitar! or is it?