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Re: Duende

Postby Jacinto » 07 Nov 2008, 19:07

Manos
I don't believe it (duende) is a conscious choice either. But as for "unconscious" or "subconscious", i guess it depends on what you mean.
I don't believe in magic, or God, or Satan , so I think somewhere sometime there could be a rational explanation for duende - But there is sort of a Heiseneberg Uncertainty Principle at work- If you are experiencing duende ,you are in no condition to rationally study it at the time

Anyway, no one in this string so far (I think) has discussed the almost-opposite of "duende" flamenco term "ange'" (angel).
I don't quite know an exact translation - its meaning includes "lightness" "humor". For example, a "pure" pueblo baile por bulerias can have ange' but if it has ange' it can't have dunede at the same time
That is not to say they are exact opposites- The presence of ange' is much much much more common than the "coming" of duende
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Re: Duende

Postby Odano Icifa » 08 Nov 2008, 01:08

Jacinto brings up a term--orgasmic--that everyone can understand. Certainly the thought that most easily enters my mind whenever I hear a well-sung fandango grande is--how closely here the music mirrors or mimics orgasm, and, I suspect, that was/is, if not the conscious intention, then surely a result that appears over and over again. I commend to anyone's attention the amazing fandangos of Manolita de Jerez on an old 1950s LP that I've recommended on this forum previously: Danzas Flamencas. And there are lots of other instances of "orgasmic" cante that all of us could reference.

What, then, about instances in classical (sensu lato) music of "orgasmic" moments? the Daybreak music from Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe, Debussy's Afternoon of a Faun? I do think that duende will ultimately be recognized as a subset of a larger spectrum of psychophysiological reactions to certain stimuli, caused by the limbic system's reaction to and processing of those stimuli. The stimuli often represent, or are perceived as, "cusp" events wherein there is a sudden experience of irresistable change, and we get the impression of being rushed forward into a new and unknown world. Music and literature, which both unfold with the passage of time (unlike, say, a static visual art) are the usual triggers of such "cusp" experiences.

Carlos
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Re: Duende

Postby Jacinto » 08 Nov 2008, 02:11

The most straightforward (and intentional) example of orgasm in music is, of course, the Liebestod in Wagner's Tristan und Isolde
But as comparing duende to orgasm, I didn't mean a close resemblance, but similarities like the physicality, the loss of self.
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