Hi All!

Does old flamenco guitars from the 70ties or 80ties,
for instance Reyes Ramirez, Gerundino, etc. have any compensation for intonation ( bridge, saddle) at al?
Or is this not neccesary because of the low action from the strings?

Payul, I moved your topic to this section in hopes that our guitar builders might see it. From my knowledge there is some very slight compensation, and certainly not as much as with a classical with a higher action. Hopefully our experts that have examined these guitar for intonation can comment if this varies with makers or there is a standard for this.

Thanks Manos Lentas,

I was not sure where to put it.....

Payul

Hola Payul
How are you? Well I hope.
I have guitars of Gerundino and of Reyes and played of Ramirez but I do not understand what is compensating.
Can you tell me how that feels when you play the strings and I will try to see if any of my guitars have that feeling of compensation.
Do you mean to say that they do not feel too hard, that they feel ok to play and comfortable?
Saludos
Tomás

Tomas, Flamenco guitars do not need as much compensation as classicals because of the low action. Sometime because players like the treble strings closer to the fingerboard, than the bass, the treble string length from nut to saddle will be shorter with the E1 the shortest. This is usually a very small distance. A good flamenco guitar builder places the bridge perfectly with this in mind.

http://www.classicalandflamencoguitars. ... ation4.htm

http://www.guitarramagazine.com/Intonat ... d%20saddle

Thanks for anwering!

Here is a picture from a compensated saddle.
http://www.ultimate-guitar-online.com/i ... addle3.jpg

The bass strings are a bit longer now, because the saddle slot is a bit "crooked" the saddle itself is normal.
It is to avoid a higher pitch when you press a string at fret 12 or above.

Do you have the crooked saddle slot on your Gerundno or Reyes Thomas? ( I do not mean the saddle itself is a bit higher at the bass side and lower at the trebble side) Gerundino and Reyes sounds very clear to me, so maybe they do not need it, because of the low action.

@ Thomas, Yes everything ok here! with you too I hope

Payul

Payul,

In some of my earlier guitars, I slanted the whole bridge just slightly, so that there is a little more compensation on the bass strings, and less on the treble side. I did away with that practice, as I observed more and more guitars that did not seem to be "out of tune" and had no extra clearance at the bass strings. Providing extra distance/compensation for the bass strings is more critical with the steel stringed guitars. The reason for that is because the thickness of the core material of steel string
impacts its flexibility, and in turn, affects the required compensation.

On a 650 scale length, it is customary to place the bridge saddle contact point at somewhere around 651--652mms from the nut. Then again, I've seen variances there.

"In-tune" or "out of tune" are less than straigh-forward when you begin to look at the issues closely. Standards have changed over the years. Many historic stringed instruments were built to the "rule of 18" method. Now, a constant of 17.817 is used to determine fret positions.

I am also quite fascinated and amused by the subject of psycho-acoustics. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then I can perhaps stretch this truism to state that harmonious sound is in the ear of the listener. Cultural sensibilities, one's own hearing, volume level, presence or absence of harmonics, all affect our pitch perception. Mathematically-perfect tuning, I concluded, is pretty much unattainable in guitars. In fact, I'd say that most analog instruments played by humans fail strictly-mathematical accuracy standards. Yet, we've been making music, singing ballads, sharing joys and sorrows, wooing our lovers, and entertaining each other since time immemorial.

If you'd like to dig-into some pithier content, check this article right here:

http://liutaiomottola.com/formulae/fret.htm

Thanks Peter,

for the article and your exponation.
It seems that a lot of spanish builders do not compensate, and it seems not really nessecary whe you have a low action at a flamenco guitar.
Also I noticed you have imperfection on a perfect intonated ( compensated) guitar only on other places, not on the 12th fret.
I have learded also, it it very importand how you place your finger....if you put in on the 12 the fret and press toward the bridge the note will go down huge.

My "problem" started when I did this short...with capo fretted on the second fret.
0
8
9
9
7
0
But if good retuned after putting the capo on, it is acceptable......maybe the slighty imperfections make a guitar perfect.....
Payul

Payul
OK now I understand.
I thought that I had seen that on folk guitars or maybe classical guitars.
Well I have looked at Gerundino and Requena that I have here in Britain and I cannot see any difference.
The line is completely straight, I mean the distance then of bass E and top E is identical from bone to nut.
My other guitars I do not know so I will look when I go back to Spain.
I think that this idea is quite modern and as my guitars are quite old that is maybe why it is not done on my guitars.
saludos
Tomás

Thanks For measuring Tomás!