I think the best finish would be traditional non-shellac, non-poly varnish. Violins are varnished, and even though a violin top is much thicker than a guitar top, varnish is not too heavy a coating for a guitar. It looks great, and is very durable. Any thoughts from our luthiers.

Ramon, The drawbacks of traditional varnish are not only the toxic issues, but the application is difficult. I used a brush for each coat and then when dry, worked each coat down thin and smooth with wet silicon carbide paper. It is difficult to get a thin even finish on the guitar this way. It is a durable finish, but a lot of work and the end result doesn't compare to french polish for evenness and beauty. Spraying lacquer became popular because of durability and ease of application.

Prominent Critic wrote:I think the best finish would be traditional non-shellac, non-poly varnish. Violins are varnished, and even though a violin top is much thicker than a guitar top, varnish is not too heavy a coating for a guitar. It looks great, and is very durable. Any thoughts from our luthiers.

Manuel Velasquez advocated for that approach. Varnish applied by brush is certainly possible. Lutes were usually varnished with some sort of oil and resin based varnish. However, lute soundboards were usually left unfinished. In fact, during guitar's pre-Torres era, the convention was to leave the soundboards unfinished, other than perhaps a very thin application of bees wax buffed out by a cloth. Frequently, it was just bare wood burnished with silk cloth.

It has been argued, and I tend to agree, that French polish is better acoustically, than varnishes. The reason? Lower dampening effect compared to heavier varnish. In violins, the input of the bow is actually quite tremendous, compared to the input on a guitar. Dampening is less of a problem. Some have argued that varnish (and its somewhat dampening effect) are even critical to the sound of a good violin, preventing it from sounding excessively bright. Guitars, on the other hand, can sound excellent without any finish on them. I know because I've done it. So the theory goes that less is more. French polish is certainly a very, very thin and unobtrusive finish.

I'd like to conclude by saying that my intent is not to knock other luthiers for using other methods or finishes. There are many excellent luthiers out there, working with different finishes, guided by dissimilar philosophies, and striving to make the best guitar they can. That's what I'm trying to do.

Manos Lentas wrote:Ramon, The drawbacks of traditional varnish are not only the toxic issues, but the application is difficult. I used a brush for each coat and then when dry, worked each coat down thin and smooth with wet silicon carbide paper. It is difficult to get a thin even finish on the guitar this way. It is a durable finish, but a lot of work and the end result doesn't compare to french polish for evenness and beauty. Spraying lacquer became popular because of durability and ease of application.

I've worked as a finisher in a spray booth, applying some seriously industrial finishes. Done French polish. Built a few violins and brushed them with oil based varnishes. I have to admit that ANY EXCELLENT FINISH IS NOT EASY. They all take time to master, and can be done very poorly.

Manos Lentas wrote:Have you ever tried hazelnut oil instead of walnut?

I am considering scraping off the Spanish varnish finish I put on my 74 red & rosewood and having you give it a french polish. I need to redrill the string holes in the bridge as the spacing is off on the B and E 1st string. I recently purchased a long bit for doing this but haven't got it done yet. I think the tone of this guitar would really open up if the heavy finish was removed.

What do you recommend for caring for the FP finish? Any special kind of rag?

Sam, I have not tried hazelnut oil, although considering the fact that my area of Oregon grows lots of hazelnuts, or filberts as they are referred to locally, I will give it some thought and experiment with it at some point.

As to scraping off varnish, unless you have a serious problem with the finish itself, I'd consider leaving it as is. It's part of the character and history of that guitar. It is also very difficult to predict with certainty how the tone will change after the guitar is stripped and re-finished. It most likely will sound different, but the tone of the instrument is determined by so many factors--finish being only one of them. It's up to you, but there's something to the concept of "originality" that appeals to me. It is currently your original work. As to re-drilling tieblock, that can certainly be done. What diameter is your long bit?

Caring for FP, a chamois (real or synthetic) works well, or a clean cotton cloth should do it.

Peter, Yes it is all my original work and the only guitar made by me in existence. Keeping it original has been the motivating factor for not doing anything to it including the bridge correction. My plan is to drill out the old holes with an 1/8 inch bit (I have one 8 inches long) then glue in maple dowels cut to size and carefully stain to match the rosewood. Then use a smaller bit to redrill the holes properly placed. These bits are shorter with the hex ends, and I will use a small diameter magnetic extension that I found at Home Depot that has good clearance from the top. This guitar was made with all hand tools and the bridge was drilled free hand with a hand drill. Still don't know how I got off so much and why I didn't notice it before gluing on the bridge. I use to use it for playing Brazilian classical (mainly Villa Lobos) for small concerts, weddings, etc., and I got use to this string spacing and it didn't bother me. I added the golpeador about 4 years ago so it would get played (since I gave up classical) and the string spacing really doesn't bother my playing but I was thinking of correcting it so if either I pass it to my granddaughter some day or sell it, this wouldn't be a issue. If I am able to come visit as I plan, when you finish my guitar, I will bring it along for your ideas. It may be best just to leave it as is for historical sake. I play on it now and then and it has a great tone, but not really flamenco or classical. It sounded good when Bob was here and played on it. Here is a sound clip of it I did a while back. Not very good playing, but might give you some idea. For now I will hold off on doing anything to it and hopefully you can give me your appraisal when I visit. Years ago I was going to have Jeff Elliot give his opinion on it, but never made it to his place. I am sure he wouldn't have been impressed as the craftsmanship is a bit crude.

It is clip number 2 ste 003 mp3

archives-f8/alegrias-negra-vs-blanca-t312.html

I am intrigued with the idea of using Oregon hazelnut oil for an Oregon french polish. I think the smell might be nice. If walnut works I would think it should also, but as you said the only way to know is to experiment. Here is some info from Mountain rose herbs in Eugene. http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/ ... zelnut.php

I did some searching looking for info on hazelnut oil in wood finishing and couldn't find anything.

Sam,
Drilling new holes in the tie block can be a bit tricky. Here are a couple of tips:

It sounds like you've already obtained a long enough bit. The bit I use is .060" thick, and it will flex too much unless supported. I support it by using it inside another copper tube while it's boring through the tie block. This keeps it going in straight, by stopping the drill bit shaft from flexing to the side.
Good luck.

Dominelli Guitars

That seems like a good idea. The copper tube also could be cut to a length that would allow the bit to barely reach through the tie-block to avoid the risk of breaking through further than intended and damaging something on the other side. Years ago I fabricated an adjustable stop for an electric hand drill that I had at that time that served a similar drill-depth-stop purpose.

-Bob

I am commenting on this old topic for two reasons.

1. Experience with French polish finish or more accurate hand rubbed on shellac.

My previous experiences were with shellac jobs that were done to heavy and possibly from inferior ingredients or rushed jobs where time was of the essence with profit in mind. These jobs were originally very even and beautiful, but one job not adhere to the wood very well and faked off with the slightest touch or scrape of a fingernail. The other fractured cracked badly.

My current experience is only a few weeks old, but has changed my mind about hand rubbed shellac. My current flamenco guitar has a very thinly applied shellac job that seals the wood and looks natural and is fairly tough. A few times where the side of my thumb nail has brushed outside the rasqueadoador, only on very close examination can one see any sign of the rasqueado gone wild. I find that amazing. A similar incident on a shiny thin lacquer finish would stick out badly.

My FP conversion also comes from the fact that a shellac finish is much easier to repair and make look good. Also less of a strain on the finances. Peter has convinced me, not with words on a screen, but with a FP job that has withstood the incidents that come from playing a more aggressive style of flamenco.

My advise to anyone trying to decide whether to get FP or not on a new flamenco, is to research who will do the FP job and what others have experienced with their jobs. Many makers contract out their FP work and this is done with production in mind and quality may suffer under these circumstances. A maker finishing their own guitars that has a proven record of quality work is one's best bet in my opinion.

2. Update on 74 homemade guitar.

I decided to remove the protective plate off my 74 and all went well except in one spot where it lifted the finish and a bit of wood. I sanded off all the heavy finish and plan to have it shellacked. Also thinned the top some as it was a bit too thick. With the heavy varnish and golpeador, it is a wonder this guitar had any sound at all. The tone and response with just the bare redwood top is phenomenal. The trebles really are much brighter. After my hands recover enough to get the bridge spacing corrected and make a new nut and saddle, then I will FP (or have Peter do it) the top and then thin the varnish on the B and S with fine grit silicon carbide paper and then polish B and S with olive oil and pumice to a sheen to match the FP top. Maybe fall before I get a space cleared out to work on it again. I am excited at the release of its 36 years imprisoned tone. Too much damping on the top. The varnish was like a sheet of plastic or having a golpeador cover the entire top. I never realized how thick it was.