I make classical and flamenco guitars. When it comes to tuners, I am often asked "what is best?" Usually, two separate concerns are expressed when choosing tuners. First one is about sound quality/tone of the guitar. The second, convenience and ease of tuning. Here is my take on the various choices:

Traditional pegs
Traditional. That alone is enough to reserve a special place and respect in a fine flamenco guitar. Pegs have been used and tested by many generations of players. Personally, I like their light weight as well as their aesthetic. Pegs are usually made from ebony or rosewood. They can be, however, made of other dense woods such as boxwood, pear, apple, maple or even an entirely different material such as bone. Aside from aesthetics, there is an acoustic consideration as well. Let's look at the weight of traditional pegs, in this case--ebony:

Traditional ebony pegs come in weighing at 43 grams. Once they are shaped and trued-up, they may lose another 3-5 grams. So traditional pegs at the headstock weigh approximately 35-45 grams.

Lighter weight appears to have an influence on the sound by controlling sustain, adding to the crispness of sound and making the over-all weight of the guitar comfortable, especially when holding it in the traditional way, with the lower bout resting against the right hip (or left for lefties). Additionally, string changes are faster with pegs as compared to machine tuners. On the downside, they can be temperamental, usually require the use of both hands, and if poorly-fitted, can be difficult to keep in tune.

Machine tuners
No need for a long discussion about their virtues. They are precise, easy to control and come in many styles and price ranges. Generic cheap tuners can cost under $20, or hundreds more for high-end Rodgers, Alessi or Graf tuners. One potential negative impact machine tuners can have on traditional flamenco sound is by significantly increasing the weight at the headstock. Let's take a look at these high-end Fustero machine tuners:

Fusteros come in weighing 134 grams, plus about another 5 grams for the screws. There is some weight taken out of the headstock in the form of wood, which I'd estimate to be approximately 15-20 grams. Still, machine tuners are more than twice the weight of ebony pegs, and nearly three times the weight of rosewood pegs.

Geared pegs
Also known as planetary geared pegs. They are not widely known, but offer significant advantages in terms of precision and control. The weight is minimal, just slightly over that of ebony pegs. Aesthetically they are nearly indistinguishable from ebony pegs (geared pegs are made of anodized aluminum machined parts and some molded resin components)

Geared pegs come in weighing at 50 grams. Not much change in weight, except that control and ease of tuning are significantly increased. So, these pegs are not likely to significantly change mass distribution.

So, what conclusions can we make from all these considerations? In my opinion, the effects of different options on the flamenco sound are subtle. I don't think machine tuners "ruin" an otherwise good flamenco guitar. Having said that, I do believe the shift in weight distribution at the headstock, colors the tone, make the instrument slightly "slower" and more sustaining. In addition, the guitar becomes a little more "top-heavy".

If the goal is to keep the sound as close to flamenco tradition as possible, pegs are a better way to go. If control and ease of use are a concern, geared pegs are a very practical solution. Otherwise, there is always a machine tuner to crank that string up to pitch!

Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts and questions.

Interesting post Peter. Another consideration is headstock design. A shorter head with a flat top might save a few more grams. One might cut out the middle in a peghead to save even more weight. I don't think it would look nice, but who knows. Also there is difference in the weight of standard grade Fusteros over the best grade. I noticed this when I replaced the lighter standards on my Dominguez with the best grade of Fusteros available. My main reason for wanting a peghead is for ease of changing strings (I change basses every 2 weeks) and traditional look. I haven't had a peghead since 2004 when I sold my Pimental, so I will have to develop that quick little shake again. In the 70's I had a stringed instrument repair shop and got fairly quick at tuning with pegs from the violins, violas, cellos, etc. Developed my quick shake from tuning pianos. Biggest problem I have now is my ears being bad. Sometimes I hear vibrations that don't come from the guitar. Mix that with bad tinnitus in both ears and simple tuning some days is a challenge. I always tune first using 5th's and a 4th. Some call it open tuning. I check with octaves. Never been one much to tune using harmonics.

Peter it would be interesting to get your opinion on maintenance and repair of wooden pegs. I use to repair worn pegs and peghead problems by drilling out from the back of the peghead a 1/2" hole, stopping before the top veneer, and gluing in a hard maple dowel. I would then drill and taper the maple insert for new pegs. I read a few years ago where a few flamenco guitar makers were installing maple inserts on pegheads from the top before the veneer was glued on so they never showed. Looking from the back it just looked like cedar. This practice would add some weight to the peghead, but I would think it to be fairly minor. The idea is the wear on the maple is much less than on cedar.

I am a big fan of traditional pegs for the same reasons Peter gave. However, he showed me the new planetary geared pegs when I was in his shop recently. They look like a terrific alternative, especially for those who find traditional pegs difficult to tune. Peter is right that their appearance is almost indistinguishable from traditional pegs, so there are no aesthetic considerations in deciding between them and traditional wooden pegs. However, in addition to their geared tuning advantage, there are a couple other advantages:

• Planetary geared pegs do not rotate against the inside wood surfaces of the holes they are mounted in, so there will be no wearing away of wood as they are adjusted over time.
  
  
• Unless conventional pegs are kept firmly seated inside their mounting holes as they are rotated, they sometimes suddenly slip, allowing strings to almost completely loosen. Strings continue to stretch for a considerable amount of time after string tension has been released for even a few seconds. Loosened strings don't stretch as much as new strings, but the effect is similar and frustrating if someone wants to play a guitar. I haven't actually used a guitar with planetary geared pegs, but because of their design, it appears to me that they eliminate that problem.

The only disadvantage I see is somewhat higher cost. Except for cost, I think planetary geared pegs probably are the best choice for flamenco guitars.

-Bob

I had a classical guitar which used the geared planetary tuners. I HATED the damned things. The internal micro-gears wouldn't mesh up nearly as well as the advertisement suggested, and changing strings was a tedious process. Conversely, I've owned 3 guitars and 2 lutes with ebony pegs, and (after gentle application of Lava Soap) never had a real problem with tuning them.

FWIW

David

davinort wrote:I had a classical guitar which used the geared planetary tuners. I HATED the damned things. The internal micro-gears wouldn't mesh up nearly as well as the advertisement suggested, and changing strings was a tedious process. Conversely, I've owned 3 guitars and 2 lutes with ebony pegs, and (after gentle application of Lava Soap) never had a real problem with tuning them.

FWIW

David

Hola David
I also played once a flamenco guitar with these kind of pegs and I was not very comfortable with them but I imagine that with time the fabricator will make those small adjustments that will improve and maybe guitarreros will become more familiar with them.
Saludos
Tomás

davinort wrote:I had a classical guitar which used the geared planetary tuners. I HATED the damned things. The internal micro-gears wouldn't mesh up nearly as well as the advertisement suggested, and changing strings was a tedious process. Conversely, I've owned 3 guitars and 2 lutes with ebony pegs, and (after gentle application of Lava Soap) never had a real problem with tuning them.

FWIW

David

That is interesting. The geared planetary tuners that Peter Tsiorba showed me were not installed on a guitar and I have never played a guitar that has had them. My comments were based only on the facts that they looked nearly identical to wooden pegs and seemed to function smoothly as I turned them. I don't know whether Peter has used them on guitars he has made or he simply had ordered some to see what they are like. Except for what you and Tomás posted I have no basis to know how well they work in actual use or how long the internal parts typically last. I can understand that changing strings could be tedious compared to with wooden pegs. It certainly takes less time to change strings on a peg head flamenco than on a typical machine head classical guitar.

-Bob

I just finished reading a lengthy discussion on a violin forum, debating using mechanical pegs. Very few have tried them, so I see a lot of bias against them simply because they are not traditional or one had a bad experience with the old Caspari mechanical pegs. Referring back to my string instrument repair days (mostly violins and guitars) I remember the Caspari tuners and had no use for them. They were heavy and required a larger hole to install. They were notorious for slipping., however a few had good experiences and would have nothing else.

The new mechanical pegs are different. The weight problem is resolved, the gearing more precise, they are no more likely to slip than any other machine head, they look traditional, and do not require a large hole to mount. I see a few that have tried them and did not like them. I don't see why stringing should be harder, simply wrap the string around the peg 2 or 3 times feed the end through the hole (once on E6 and A5 twice on others) and tune it up. I can see one will have to turn the peg 4 or 5 times more to reach pitch, but that isn't to big a deal. Still faster than on machine heads with horizontal rollers. Is it the feel of the vernier peg opposed to the feel of the direct peg that is the issue? I can understand how one can get use to the special feel of a solid peg and the automatic reaction that one develops in tuning and seating it snugly and then when taking hold of a gear reduction peg, it feels strange. It would be interesting to hear how long a player tried the mechanical pegs before giving up on them. Being an old time radio builder, I have used vernier assemblies to make tuning smoother and easier. Same principal, a geared or friction type assembly to reduce tuning speed and make it easier to center the signal. It is a different feel but easy enough to get use to. Most of these old 1940-50's assemblies made in the USA are still in great condition today, while the ones made in Japan in the 1960's didn't last but a few months before slipping and never felt good quality when new.

I am wondering if the different makers of these mechanical pegs use different methods and some are better than others? I fear if they are mass manufactured in China, then we will see some real inferior pegs. This is the only info I can find online. http://www.lessonsinlutherie.com/PlanetaryPegs.html

Maybe Peter can elaborate more.

davinort wrote: I've owned 3 guitars and 2 lutes with ebony pegs, and (after gentle application of Lava Soap) never had a real problem with tuning them.

Thank you David for the Lava Soap tip. I was about to start a topic on lubricating peg tuners.

I have never used any kind of lubricant and was looking for info on this. When you say Lava Soap, are you refering to bar soap? Would Ivory Soap work as well? I have seen a lot of peg stuff on the market with good and bad user reviews, plus the stuff is expensive, so ordinary soap seems like a good way to go.

Lorette

Lorette wrote:... Lava Soap...are you refering to bar soap? Would Ivory Soap work as well? I have seen a lot of peg stuff on the market with good and bad user reviews, plus the stuff is expensive, so ordinary soap seems like a good way to go.

Lorette

Lorette,

Lava is bar soap, but it has an ingredient most soaps don't: pumice (volcanic origin abrasive powder). I would be careful not to put much ivory soap on the pegs. Very sticky pegs might benefit from a little (let's make it VERY LITTLE) soap on them. Too much, and you'll be spinning the pegs effortlessly. Unfortunately, so will the natural string tension.

What makes lava soap a better choice is that it allows for both a little bit of lubrication, as well as abrasive "grip" at once. Also, pumice abrasion will even-out minor irregularities in older pegs by grinding down the high spots on both the peg and the shafts. I recommend using LAVA soap instead of any other type. If not, you can obtain some pumice, melt your Ivory soap, incorporate about 20% (by volume) pumice, and you'll have Ivory Lava