My question is about the way a guitar feels in your hands and especially the right hand.
Sometimes this is called pulsación or maybe string tension but I think it is a much bigger subject. Simply changing strings or adjusting bridge bone does not achieve much.
The question is of course for anyone and everyone but I would be keen to know what the guitarreros think.

My experience and preference
I have played many guitars and of course I always play my students guitars so over the years I have played a great many flamenco guitars by very famous guitarreros and by others who are the way to becoming well known.
I must say that for me how the guitar feels in my hands and how it reacts is even more important than how good it sounds.
I do not want a bad sounding guitar but unless it feels perfect for me, for my pulsación then I do not want it simply because I will not play it.
It must be tight enough for me but not completely inflexible.
Each person has their own preference but there are a couple of things that I read on the internet from time to time that really I do not agree with.

The problem
If the guitar does not feel right people start to lower or heighten the bone and try strings of different makes and tensions. Well, that may do some good but I think that the pulsación in the guitar is much more complex than that and you have what you have and those changes are not really going to help.
For example if you have a floppy guitar higher tension strings are just going to feel a bit tighter but still not stay with your fingers and still move out and not get back on time.

The possible answers
So I think that the feel of the guitar must be directed by some or all of the following.
1) All of the wood of all parts but especially the face.
2) The density and tension in the face must surely affect how the face holds the strings. When we play the stings I guess we are making them pull on the face. Is the face completely inflexible or a little flexible; is it thick of thin, hard or soft? These factors must affect how the string is working.
3) But also neck angle and the height of string at fret zero. I mean at the bone at the head end. And then maybe head angle.
4) I imagine the characteristics of the bridge and how it is fused into the face might also affect how the strings feel.

Conclusion
So I guess what I am saying is that making a fabulous guitar is not easy and making guitar that is individual for a particular guitarist is not easy either.
So everything that the guitarrero does is a contributory factor to how that guitar is going to work in our hands.
I am lucky because the pulsación on all my guitars is fabulous for me but I play many of my students guitars and I think how on earth can they play them.
It is quite noticeable how many guitars even very famous ones feel to me, at least, all wrong.
So my final question is am I right or am I making things too complicated.
Is it simply a matter of changing bone and strings or is the feel of the guitar the result of so m ay factors worked by the guitarreros and there is a limit to what you can do to change the characteristics of the guitar.

Gracias

Tomás

Tomas, Everything is a factor, but I think most important is soundboard bracing and way maker thins the soundboard. Bracing for the humidity of the main place the guitar will be played is a factor for instance, but I think what you are saying is the tendency of many makers to overbuild. This is very common in student guitars. If a soundboard is to thick, it will be a stiffer feel. With the use of power machines to thin the top for instance, the maker never really gets to feel the character of the wood and doesn't fine tune it by scraping the top while strung up before finish is applied. I understand what you say about feel without paying attention to tone. Response in a flamenco guitar is most important and if the guitar doesn't respond correctly, then the player may be missing out on what they are capable of playing.

Hi Tomas
You said:
"I must say that for me how the guitar feels in my hands and how it reacts is even more important than how good it sounds."
I certainly agree with you. I didn't realize just how important this was until recently.
About 6 years ago I commissioned a flamenco guitar with the only request being that it sound good. And that's what I got. A fairly heavy guitar with a bright, clear, sweet sound.
I didn't realize what I was missing until I went to a different luthier and asked him to build a guitar that was lighter and had a better feel.
Again I got what I asked for. This guitar feels great, soft, easier to play and sounds very good. I find the vibrations in my hands very therapeutic.
I pick up the first guitar but after 5 min. I switch to the second.
I am now in the process of getting that first guitar set up to play easier but other than lowering the action, I don't know what else he can do that will make any difference.
I guess the lesson is that local luthiers are very good at building what you want. You just have to know what is important to you.

I am not familiar with the term "pulsación," but the issues Tomás raised for discussion are important both to playing well and guitar satisfaction. I haven't had the opportunity to play the guitars of many students like he has had, but I have played a large number of guitars in shops around the world. There is no doubt in my mind that it is easier to find guitars that sound good, than that feel right and are easy to play.

However, as Tomás pointed out, each person has their own preferences. Maybe guitars that don't feel right to me would be ideal for someone else. Furthermore, we probably tend to like characteristics that we are most used to. Playing a strange guitar can be like typing on an unfamiliar keyboard or driving an unfamiliar vehicle. Rental cars often seem awful to me when I first drive them, because various things aren't located where I am used to them being or aren't adjusted the way I like them to be. After driving rental cars a few days they usually seem better, even though I rarely like them as well as my own car that I am more used to.

I liked the sound of my Contreras negra when I played it in Contreras' shop in Madrid. I more than liked it. I thought it sounded terrific. The strings seemed stiffer and higher above the fret-board than I was used to, but I thought that could be fixed easily by changing the strings and lowering the saddle. I was wrong. I tried a variety of strings and lowered the action, but the strings still seemed stiff, which made the guitar seem difficult to play. Throughout most of the many years since I bought that guitar I haven't liked playing it much, because of that issue. It has sounded great, but I just haven't wanted to play it.

I discussed that problem with Peter Tsiorba. He said the guitar probably has a thicker top than the tops of my other guitars. I asked him about replacing or thinning the top and he convinced me that I shouldn't modify a fine old guitar from a respected maker like that. He said some players prefer the stiff action that results from thicker tops and that I should instead sell the guitar to someone who likes it and replace it with one that I prefer.

I didn't do that, because I was busy and had other guitars to play. However, I am starting to be glad that I didn't. A few months ago I decided to focus on improving my Zambra Mora playing (As a side note, there is interesting Zambra history information at http://zambra-mora.angelfire.com/). My Contreras negra sounds fantastic played open with the 6th string tuned down to D, so I starting playing it more than I had before. Now that I have played it regularly for a year or so, it no longer seems so stiff. I don't think the guitar has changed. I have changed.

Another interesting aspect of this is that when Humberto came to Salt Lake City recently and played my guitars, he liked my Contreras better than my Ramírez, even though my preference always has been the reverse.

However, none of my other guitars compare to my Tsiorba in regard to being wonderful to play. The same is true of Sam's Tsiorba. Even though my wife and I were only able to visit with Sam and his wife for a few minutes during a quick trip back to Utah a few months ago, I didn't want to put his Tsiorba down. Tsiorba's are simply marvoulus to play. I don't know all the reasons why. They just are. Play one if you have the opportunity and you will understand.

-Bob

Bob, The interesting thing is the Tsiorba classical I played on was also very easy to play as is my 74 homebrew after thinning the top and neck. However the 74 feels stiffer than the Tsiorba and I think this is the rosewood and mahogany maple neck and also the 11 fan brace system with the rosewood being the biggest factor. How the entire guitar vibrates as a unit, I think has a direct effect on how the strings respond to manipulation. I think for most flamenco rosewood and any wood over 1700 on the Janka scale is a bit hard and stiff for flamenco B and S even if it is thinned more. However using a D tuning such as the Zambra and playing more classical style pieces, rosewood can sound better than other softer woods. Be that as it may, my Maple Tsiorba holds its own with the D tuning. In my experience so far I think maple or myrtle are ideal woods for a flamenco guitar that will also sound great and feel great playing classical and contemporary. My Tsiorba is without any doubt the easiest playing guitar I have ever played. That includes Reyes, Fernandez, Hernandez, Dominguez, Diaz, Maldonado, Pimentel, Canin, Shelton, Ramirez, and several others that I cannot even remember. Peter's secret? Shaving over sawdust, hand tools over power machines, working with the wood instead of against it. A maker cannot know what a particular piece of wood requires for thickness if it is run through a sander drum. If planes and scrapers are used, then the maker hears and feels the nature of the wood and can bring the best out of it. Before applying the finish if the guitar is strung up and then the wood finally scraped to adjust the tone and response to its best, then finished by hand rubbing on an organic finish, then the sound and playing will be the best. Of course there is factors involving how the neck is made and set, also the bridge size etc, but with all those factors being similar with the best makers, the ones that use mostly hand techniques and tools and don't concern themselves with time and profit being lost taking these extra sometimes slow steps, they will produce an easier playing and sounding guitar.

This discussion is very interesting to me, because the Yamaha I am using now is not that great to play. I want to try whatever I buy next before I buy it, because I too don't like the play-ability of most guitars I find in shops. I have never seen a Tsiorba, but would like to try one.

Mendoza

I don't know if you are located anywhere near the west coast of Oregon, but if it is convenient for you, you are welcome to stop by here and play mine.

-Bob

Neck shape and thickness may not affect pulsación much, but they affect how a guitar feels in a player's hands and how easy it is to depress the strings. What are your preferences regarding a traditional D shaped neck vs. a neck that is slightly flattened on the back side? What about neck thickness? Do you prefer a neck that is slightly thinner or thicker than average? If so, why?

Alvarez

This is a very interesting discussion. Neck shape may affect pulsación more than it might seem, because neck stiffness or flexibility at least slightly affects the ways in which the strings vibrate. Regarding the question about a slightly thinner or thicker neck perference, my preference is for a slightly thicker neck. My left hand sometimes cramps when I play modern guitars with thin necks.

Lucas

lucas wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. Neck shape may affect pulsación more than it might seem, because neck stiffness or flexibility at least slightly affects the ways in which the strings vibrate. Regarding the question about a slightly thinner or thicker neck perference, my preference is for a slightly thicker neck. My left hand sometimes cramps when I play modern guitars with thin necks.

Lucas

My hands cramp fairly easy and have muscle seizures at times. It seems a thinner neck tends to aggravate it more. My 74 had a traditional classical style neck, fairly thick and D shaped. It is mahogany with maple. In order to get some weight off the guitar, it was thinned to a very thin flatter profile. It now plays like a dream, but does tend to aggravate my hand problems, especially on descending arpeggios. Be this as it may it did change the pulsacion by improving the response and playability. I prefer a thicker neck than this one, but a very small amount thinner than the old standard.

I think the pulsacion of a guitar is best when the guitar is held in a traditional style, rather than some of the modern ways that tend to deaden the guitar. During the last few months that I have been able to hold using the traditional style, I have noticed both my guitars seem more responsive a a bit easier to play. The least surface area contacted the easier a guitar can vibrate. I think a thin, light, very responsive guitar designed for flamenco is more sensitive to how and where the body contacts it than the classical.